AMB race tracking system- is it worth revisiting?

[Danny King]

Would definately add integrity to heat racing.

I think calls would still be vehemently ( violently

) contested in some classes requiring the deserved DQ . I'm open to anything as it is very difficult to keep track of what's going on unless under ideal conditions , lighting , glare same colored boats etc .

I agree Tom. I just think doing it the same way as FOREVER isn't good. I'm sure there will be a learning curve. But to move forward we must sometime take a step backwards.

 

[ron upton]

anyone ever tried to put the wire in pvc pipe? cant say it will always keep the wire safe but sure better then bare wire

 

[bzubee]

Length of the loop the IMPBA had was a double set had 2 control boxes due to the extra length plus John Equi and I also experimented with the loop under water and the reception lessened as you went deeper plus if the loop broke under water that makes it even harder to repair. Plus the host club can vary the width of the start /finish line by using a "gain knob on the control box" IMPBA lost money on the use and eventual sale of the system. I'm with Alan and Terry on this question!

 

[Andy Brown]

I have seen races with great attendance shrink to low attendance races because the CD's called too many bad starts for too many years.

I have been to five big races that used the AMB system. Lots of boats passed under the loop. I saw the wire get ripped down once.

20 years ago lost, and damaged transponders was a problem. Today personal transponders solve that issue.

Does it matter if the loop picks up the boat 2 feet before the Start/finish line? It's the same for everyone.

Yes, if the wire is not tight and sags in the center a boat crossing under at that point could possibly get about one foot closer to the start line before being detected.

But Seriously! At 75 mph our boats are traveling 100 feet per second. NO human can judge a start under five feet tolerance.

The FSR-Vee racers have 30, 50, 100 lap races with up to 12 boats in a heat. That is a lot of transponder signals in one race. They have been doing it for years. If there was a real problem of transponders not picking up consistently the FSR-Vee racers would have given up on the system long ago.

The biggest down side I see is the cost and the fact that clubs with deep lakes may not be able to use the system.

Are we going to let a few electromechanical issues stop us from working through to a solution for good results?

Maybe sailing across the ocean is a bad idea...I heard that some ships have sunk!

 

[SayMikey]

Im sure a personal transponder is a big step forward. The last time IMPBA used it was with the transponders that sit in a charging rack. They could not hold the charge all day,a personal would stop that issue.

 

[El Zorro]

The AMB system that IMPBA used in the late 1990's was used at the 1997 and 1999 Internats. At the 1999 Internats in Huntsville, Alabama the system was run all week long during heat racing by my wife, Priscilla. Another person was supposed to come to the Internats that year to run it but that person backed out at the last minute ( won't mention any names ). She had never even seen the system before coming to the race. The wires got destroyed at one point during the race by a flying outrigger hydro. I had made up an extra set which took about 45 minutes to put up and get going. The biggest problem with this system back then is you needed 4 sets of 12 transponders to run a big race with. We only had 2 sets. The IMPBA Board did not want to spend the extra money for the other 2 sets. The reason for 4 sets of transponders was that you needed to use 2 sets each day at the races and needed the other 2 sets to be charging. It took 12 hours to fully charge each set. Another problem was some of the clubs ( I won't mention who ) we sent the system out to just flat out did not take care of the system. We would get the system back with wet electronics, missing parts, broken parts, etc. Just ask John Finch. He did a great job keeping the system going when we had it. Just needed more transponders at that time to make it a good, useable system. We had the wire thing figured out. It was just a bit different set up at different lakes. If each lake had it's own set of wires it would be a piece of cake to set the system up and use it. Now, by having personal transponders for everyone's boat, the battery problem would be solved. However, you have to have a person who is trained and familiar with the system in order for it to perform correctly. I truly believed in the AMB system. This type of system could still work for boat racing if it is set up properly and have a person who is trained to operate it running it. Maybe one day..............

Dick Tyndall

 

[Terry Keeley]

The AMB system that IMPBA used in the late 1990's was used at the 1997 and 1999 Internats. At the 1999 Internats in Huntsville, Alabama the system was run all week long during heat racing by my wife, Priscilla. Another person was supposed to come to the Internats that year to run it but that person backed out at the last minute ( won't mention any names ). She had never even seen the system before coming to the race. The wires got destroyed at one point during the race by a flying outrigger hydro. I had made up an extra set which took about 45 minutes to put up and get going. The biggest problem with this system back then is you needed 4 sets of 12 transponders to run a big race with. We only had 2 sets. The IMPBA Board did not want to spend the extra money for the other 2 sets. The reason for 4 sets of transponders was that you needed to use 2 sets each day at the races and needed the other 2 sets to be charging. It took 12 hours to fully charge each set. Another problem was some of the clubs ( I won't mention who ) we sent the system out to just flat out did not take care of the system. We would get the system back with wet electronics, missing parts, broken parts, etc. Just ask John Finch. He did a great job keeping the system going when we had it. Just needed more transponders at that time to make it a good, useable system. We had the wire thing figured out. It was just a bit different set up at different lakes. If each lake had it's own set of wires it would be a piece of cake to set the system up and use it. Now, by having personal transponders for everyone's boat, the battery problem would be solved. However, you have to have a person who is trained and familiar with the system in order for it to perform correctly. I truly believed in the AMB system. This type of system could still work for boat racing if it is set up properly and have a person who is trained to operate it running it. Maybe one day..............

Dick Tyndall

I remember you were the IMPBA president when I brought it to the Board at the '95 nats in Bartow. IIRC at the time you and John were the only two convinced of it's worth.

Then I played the tape of Andy hitting the start with one of his 20 hydros. At full speed most of the Board members said he was over, but when you played it in slow mo it was clear he was right on and of course the system said so. Still I think the vote passed by only one vote.

I know Marty used the system for a couple of years after those two Nats for the Masters in Indy, using it to set up A, B & C "mains" like car races. Maybe he can chime in.

 

[mark ham]

What about an infrared light system, in oval track racing we used a lap timing and counter system that worked off of infrared beam and worked very well, is there anything like that but smaller ?

 

[El Zorro]

Terry, you sold me on the system at the Board meeting at the 1995 Bartow Internats. As you said, not many on the IMPBA Board were convinced...............mostly because of the cost. There were a lot of questions and " what if's " that went along with the system, but as it was proven, when it was set up and operated properly, it worked like a champ. Thank you for all of the work you did to make that happen for IMPBA.

Dick Tyndall

 

[acaptn]

I would love to see the system used. What a great tool it could be!!!

 

[Blackout]

The camera starts we used in the past in Charleston is coming back. We still have the equipment. Looking to possibly upgrade the equipment as well. No more arguing about the starts. We have had enough.

Do you have details on where to get a camera that can get triggered by a voltage input from the clock's computer? Thanks. And any other equipment info as well.

 

[Bart Drieghe]

As a president of one the clubs who organizes one of the biggest races in Europe , i can say that the Europeans can't do without the amb system .

Yes we do run 20 mins and 30 mins final .... But even if they lasted 7 or 8 mins , we'd still miss it BIG TIMES

But besides the V racing , we also have O and Hydro racing and we wouldn't want to miss it either .

IT tells us who jumped the start and who didn't and counts the laps .

IS it 100 % , no , neither are we , humans .

The personal transponders makes it a tad more expensiver to the racer but the good thing on it is that the organizer doesn't need to run around to charge the transponders and such , its the responsability of the racer . If he's a smart one , he'll put it in a tiny box and put it from one boat to another ( this is for you Hydro guys and offshore

)It only needs three or four cells i think and lasts a long time .

Disadvantage for the organizer , he has to put all those transponder numbers into the computer system AND THEY HAVE TO BE CORRECT

Regards ,

B

 

[ron upton]

nice ... love to read the threads from guys that say well it didn't work well in 1944 when we tried it...amb personal transponders have been working great for many years in cars and trucks etc....id be willing to try it ....

 

[Andy Brown]

The AMB system that IMPBA used in the late 1990's was used at the 1997 and 1999 Internats. At the 1999 Internats in Huntsville, Alabama the system was run all week long during heat racing by my wife, Priscilla. Another person was supposed to come to the Internats that year to run it but that person backed out at the last minute ( won't mention any names ). She had never even seen the system before coming to the race. The wires got destroyed at one point during the race by a flying outrigger hydro. I had made up an extra set which took about 45 minutes to put up and get going. The biggest problem with this system back then is you needed 4 sets of 12 transponders to run a big race with. We only had 2 sets. The IMPBA Board did not want to spend the extra money for the other 2 sets. The reason for 4 sets of transponders was that you needed to use 2 sets each day at the races and needed the other 2 sets to be charging. It took 12 hours to fully charge each set. Another problem was some of the clubs ( I won't mention who ) we sent the system out to just flat out did not take care of the system. We would get the system back with wet electronics, missing parts, broken parts, etc. Just ask John Finch. He did a great job keeping the system going when we had it. Just needed more transponders at that time to make it a good, useable system. We had the wire thing figured out. It was just a bit different set up at different lakes. If each lake had it's own set of wires it would be a piece of cake to set the system up and use it. Now, by having personal transponders for everyone's boat, the battery problem would be solved. However, you have to have a person who is trained and familiar with the system in order for it to perform correctly. I truly believed in the AMB system. This type of system could still work for boat racing if it is set up properly and have a person who is trained to operate it running it. Maybe one day..............

Dick Tyndall

I remember you were the IMPBA president when I brought it to the Board at the '95 nats in Bartow. IIRC at the time you and John were the only two convinced of it's worth.

Then I played the tape of Andy hitting the start with one of his 20 hydros. At full speed most of the Board members said he was over, but when you played it in slow mo it was clear he was right on and of course the system said so. Still I think the vote passed by only one vote.

I know Marty used the system for a couple of years after those two Nats for the Masters in Indy, using it to set up A, B & C "mains" like car races. Maybe he can chime in.

Terry,

I forgot about using the video recorder to catch the start of our 21 hydro and then comparing the recording to the AMB result. I do now remember that if the boat was close to the start line, it would appear to be over to the naked eye. But the slow-mo would show it was good as did the AMB system.

I remember you flew down to Florida and we did the testing at Joe Ingrao's lake. Helen Ingrao borrowed the video equipment from the school where she was Principle. Joe was the IMPBA President at that time.

It was a fun day of testing and the results were looking very promising. In actual use it was the transponders that became the major problem as was noted by others.

Replacing a broken loop, which does not happen very often, is no different than replacing buoys.

 

[John Knight]

The camera starts we used in the past in Charleston is coming back. We still have the equipment. Looking to possibly upgrade the equipment as well. No more arguing about the starts. We have had enough.

Do you have details on where to get a camera that can get triggered by a voltage input from the clock's computer? Thanks. And any other equipment info as well.

Craig,

It is a rather simple setup and is as follows:

1. Get a digital camera, even a cheap one will work.

2. You will need a 2 wire adaptor to hook into the camera.

3. Pull a 2 wire cable from the clock to the camera. 22 awg will work fine. Connect one end to the clock AMB terminals (using Randall Thomas clocks) and the other end to the camera adaptor.

4. Get a computer monitor and connect a video cable from the monitor to the camera.

5. Put the camera on a mini tripod directly on the start line, wherever the CD is located.

6. When the clock hits zero, the clock fires a signal to the camera and it snaps a picture of the start. That picture is then relayed to the monitor to confirm the start. All of the starts are recorded in the camera SD or similar card for review as needed.

The cost of the equipment is rather cheap these days. The camera can be had for less than $100 and so should the monitor. A tripod is about $10. The cabling will be less than $25. For less than $250 a club can put a no argument start system into place.

 

[Blackout]

The camera starts we used in the past in Charleston is coming back. We still have the equipment. Looking to possibly upgrade the equipment as well. No more arguing about the starts. We have had enough.

Do you have details on where to get a camera that can get triggered by a voltage input from the clock's computer? Thanks. And any other equipment info as well.

Craig,

It is a rather simple setup and is as follows:

1. Get a digital camera, even a cheap one will work.

2. You will need a 2 wire adaptor to hook into the camera.

3. Pull a 2 wire cable from the clock to the camera. 22 awg will work fine. Connect one end to the clock AMB terminals (using Randall Thomas clocks) and the other end to the camera adaptor.

4. Get a computer monitor and connect a video cable from the monitor to the camera.

5. Put the camera on a mini tripod directly on the start line, wherever the CD is located.

6. When the clock hits zero, the clock fires a signal to the camera and it snaps a picture of the start. That picture is then relayed to the monitor to confirm the start. All of the starts are recorded in the camera SD or similar card for review as needed.

The cost of the equipment is rather cheap these days. The camera can be had for less than $100 and so should the monitor. A tripod is about $10. The cabling will be less than $25. For less than $250 a club can put a no argument start system into place.

Cool, thanks!

 

[Al Hobbs]

The camera set up sounds very good.

Al Hobbs

 

[XtremeRcBoats]

I agree with Bart and like the AMB system. I think the major draw backs are the costs of the system and line. On the other hand it saves a lot a discussion and the rules state that the transponder must be within 10" of the back of the boat.

At the Naviga world championships there was also a big score board which tells you which boat is ahead of the rest, so also nice for the spectators.

Andy, the system can also be used on deeper lakes with floating pontoons. This is how we do it at one race location in the Netherlands.

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

I agree with Bart and like the AMB system. I think the major draw backs are the costs of the system and line. On the other hand it saves a lot a discussion and the rules state that the transponder must be within 10" of the back of the boat.

At the Naviga world championships there was also a big score board which tells you which boat is ahead of the rest, so also nice for the spectators.

Andy, the system can also be used on deeper lakes with floating pontoons. This is how we do it at one race location in the Netherlands.

Wow No Cheat count laps ? show proof many laps

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

The only way that this can be put to use in boat racing is if it can be designed to work as good as it does on car tracks. Anything less and it will be a flop. Going to a totally automated count system would eliminate arguments and make the officials job easier....ONLY if it works as well as it does on the car tracks.

The start line camera works good. Brian Callahan set it up at Charleston a few years ago. But, it creates another problem. All weekend at that race everytime a boat was called over, the driver would finish their heat and then "march" up the stairs to the CD stand wanting to see the pic of the start. So, you solve one problem and create another...why?..because the participants don't trust the CD's and the calls being made.

The last time I was on the CD stand, at the end of the weekend I was public enemy no.1 and probably lost half dozen friends (and we were using the start line camera) I started racing RC boats in 1989....when it was fun. Now, you could not pay me to do any officiating.