P Limited Hydro IMPBA.

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LohringMiller

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Jan 25, 2017
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664
"SO, it's ok to do propeller development, but doing the same for the motor is somehow cheating???? "

It's just a matter of what you want to happen under the rules. The P limited classes were a spec motor class with the UL-1 motor the favorite. The gas classes are in effect spec motor classes with Zenoahs and their clones the favorites due to costs. The modifications by the better engine builders give very similar power. Even the nitro classes are becoming spec motor classes since CMB is the main engine builder of the larger engines. Displacement limits are universally recognized as encouraging development in a given engine size. However, costs in model boating limit what is actually run.

Rapid changes in motor availability has made equivalent motors hard to spec. The size limits the easiest to tech. Today there are lots of low cost electric power plant options. The rules will just determine the direction of electric development. Tomorrow's motors, batteries, and ESCs will be better than today's in any case.

Lohring Miller
 

Greg Schweers

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2003
Messages
21
Don rewound my first motor back in January 2019. We have 12 races a year, and I enter 5 to 7 boats every race. I would burn up 2-3 motors a year. 90% of them were ProBoat 2000. Since using Don's motors, I haven't burned up a motor in over 2 years. Why would you pay between $70-80 for a new motor when you could have it rewound for $50? Don has made me several special motors. Are they fast? Yes. Do I win more races because of them? Maybe. The more speed you have, the less chance you're going to finish. Back in the UL1 days, I burned up 27 UL1 motors. You guys need to let this play out for a couple of years. You have all heard this before: You could give 20 guys the same rewound motors, and the same 2 or 3 guys that always win are still going to win. It's just a fact. We average between 15-22 guys every race. In the 2 years I've been running rewound motors, not one person has asked me what kind of motors I was using. I had to tell everybody I was running rewound motors. Can you pull more prop? Yes.
 

Brandon Atwell

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Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,046
Outsider perspective, why can’t P-Limited be treated like Sport B tunnel in the IMPBA?
The “go-no go” gauge to measure carburetor size and exhaust outlet size seems to work nearly flawless. If anyone really has questions regarding legality they pay their protest fee and let the technical process play out. Wouldn’t the 36x60 can size be comparable? At national events it all gets speced appropriately.
I’ve ran a bone stock motor since 2011 and have taken home the glory at the end of the weekend against both modified Sport motors and full- fledged Novarossi’s running the most expensive pipes and props. At some point, boat setup and prop choice become more key than a motor that puts out more power.

My experience with FE is limited so maybe my take on the effects of a rewound motor isn’t quite as comparable to nitro motor modifications, but I believe having something on the books that will allow someone to show up at the pond with something like a RTR UL1 and have acceptance country wide while being competitive is the farthest thing from a negative. The electric classes in D13 are fairly packed, with credit to the Huff’s for their work on supplying expertise, hulls and effort. I know Mic has worked his tail off in Florida to bolster their classes and it shows. It is clear P-Limited has a place somewhere on our books. You may see an electric tunnel in our stable sooner rather than later...
 

Bill Brandt

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Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
1,882
We recently adopted new FE rules in Namba in an attempt to simplify and give clarity to racers. We believe they will work. Yes I’m speaking to 1/8 Scale FE.
Personally I’m dumbfounded to think that someone would cheat to win a toy boat, as we call them, race. I think it’s simple. If someone is shown to have intended to cheat then that person should be banned for at least 10 years from participating in their sanctioned bodies racing events.
i like to think all those that race with me are friends in common. You want to cheat when you race me you certainly are not a friend. If you think you need to cheat then that just puts your true character in perspective. If you argue that you think your changes are questionable but within the rules then again, that just puts your true character in perspective.
 

Wasted wages

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Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,272
Smokey Yunick said it best....
  • As far as cheating goes, they'll never stop it. The only way it can be done successfully, only one person can know about it. ...
  • You don't race cars, you race the rule book. ...
  • There are two types of racers- cheaters and losers. ...
  • If your gonna play with rattlesnakes, you better know what rattlesnakes do.
 

Wasted wages

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Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,272
2" fuel lines... held 5 extra gallons in the car..

One of his nascar Chevelle's was 15/16 scale of the original factory car.. The guy was a genius!! Everytime they figured out what he was doing Nascar made a rule against it immediately..

Not to mention what he did for the small block Chevy...so many innovations..
 

Steve White

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Supporting Member
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Dec 11, 2020
Messages
333
^^^ Age old strategy, when ya get beat - change the rules. The story in the days of Shelby/Ford -vs- Ferrari is a good one. Enzo had such an influence over the sanctioning bodies, races were cancelled when they knew Ford was positioned to kick their asses. The inevitable happened anyway in that case.

You gotta love it.
 

bermudadude

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Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
238
Smokey Yunick said it best....
  • As far as cheating goes, they'll never stop it. The only way it can be done successfully, only one person can know about it. ...
  • You don't race cars, you race the rule book. ...
  • There are two types of racers- cheaters and losers. ...
  • If your gonna play with rattlesnakes, you better know what rattlesnakes do.
u know what ? im not an electric guy really but THIS applies to all racing.
man or woman up and LEARN . ur in it for entertainment -entertain urself by reading up on all the stuff pertinent to ur hobby/class.
what does a guy say when his 67 rigger get lapped by a .45 ? they .45 was cheating?? id be embarrassed ,not file a protest. the world has changed and tooooo many crybabies.
when people cal for more rules this is a scary concept.
its funny i see 1 of these arguments online about this kind of thing (yea i know its a discussion) every few years. same happens with gas .
dont see it with nitro --- buy what u want,,,grind on it the way u want ,shove as much nitro as u want ,bolt it in whatever size boat u want (impba 60" limit ) and lets have it . u still have to keep it started,turn, hit the clock or else do an extra lap, then finish ....lots of steps to winning not just buying .
we need to get back to LEARNING and improving . lets force the issue .
back on the real topic ,,,IF i was "in to " electric ,i would be re-winding ,idk how but i would learn,,i would even re-build controllers to handle more power .
i THOUGHT rc hobbying was about experimentation,,,lately its getting kinda pre-boxed and ready to run.....is this the future? kinda like star trek n everybody wearing the same clothes
jm2¢
 

Wasted wages

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Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,272
Same exact thing happened in NHRA when Ford came out with the 429 or 460 big block. ( I can't think which one )
The new Ford block had a 5 inch cylinder bore spacing which opened the door for a TON of good things on a prostock and supercharged motor.

The top fuel guys were playing with BBC's and Chrysler Hemi's and the NHRA saw the new Ford as a threat in the pro stock ranks.
A few motors were built and tested before the NHRA made a bore spacing rule change that eliminated the motor as legal.

It's funny how after all the dust settled, the aftermarket started producing 5 inch bore spaced blocks and heads for the Chevy guys...
Pick up a Brodix catalog and see all of the bowtie MONSTER motors that can be built now... mostly for guys in the IHRA and Pro Mods... where the rules are much different.
7, 8, 9, 1000 CI monsters are the norm.

Or look up Sonny's Racing... they sell a 1000+ CI motor @ 2700 HP... NA - no turbos !
 
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T.S.Davis

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Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
563
It seems easy just don’t allow rewired motors, but how can you tell the difference from the outside?
Most can't. I never could have back when we had the motor list. There was no guidance on how to verify a motor other than look in the holes. One of the many problems with the original rendition. I can tell now but I wind them myself.

If we just ruled "no rewinds" and I buy all the parts to build 100 motors and wind them myself then they're not rewinds. They would be "as manufactured"......by me. Not that hard to pull off if you know the right people. Just takes cash. I've had both TP and Neu build custom wind motors for me. Those have decent bearings and the correct temp wire.

That's the real problem with the box art boat motors. They use the lowest quality low temp wire they can find and then put as little in as possible. It's not THAT they're rewinds. It's WHAT they're wound with. Wire that doesn't melt is a better motor. The box art motors as sold don't last. It's not even a design issue. It's a slight of hand in my opinion. Aquacraft or Proboat specify what they want. Think of that as "X". They get the cheapest version of that specification. If the motor supplier can save a single penny per unit on a bearing they do it. Crap wire? P'ching! Money in the pocket. It ends up 65%.....maybe.......of what it should be. Even if AQ does some sort of QC inspection they wont know if it's got low temp wire, or sad bearings, or the rotor isn't wrapped well. Only use can show if it's okay. Even then...."okay" is enough for hobby grade. So it goes to market. It's plenty of motor for the average basher. He never finds the magic smoke. For a guy that runs two or three times a week forget it. That failure is eminent.
 
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Mark Bullard

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Joined
Jan 26, 2004
Messages
1,701
Most can't. I never could have back when we had the motor list. There was no guidance on how to verify a motor other than look in the holes. One of the many problems with the original rendition. I can tell now but I wind them myself.

If we just ruled "no rewinds" and I buy all the parts to build 100 motors and wind them myself then they're not rewinds. They would be "as manufactured"......by me. Not that hard to pull off if you know the right people. Just takes cash. I've had both TP and Neu build custom wind motors for me. Those have decent bearings and the correct temp wire.

That's the real problem with the box art boat motors. They use the lowest quality low temp wire they can find and then put as little in as possible. It's not THAT they're rewinds. It's WHAT they're wound with. Wire that doesn't melt is a better motor. The box art motors as sold don't last. It's not even a design issue. It's a slight of hand in my opinion. Aquacraft or Proboat specify what they want. Think of that as "X". They get the cheapest version of that specification. If the motor supplier can save a single penny per unit on a bearing they do it. Crap wire? P'ching! Money in the pocket. It ends up 65%.....maybe.......of what it should be. Even if AQ does some sort of QC inspection they wont know if it's got low temp wire, or sad bearings, or the rotor isn't wrapped well. Only use can show if it's okay. Even then...."okay" is enough for hobby grade. So it goes to market. It's plenty of motor for the average basher. He never finds the magic smoke. For a guy that runs two or three times a week forget it. That failure is eminent.


So you think that by using cheap wire will change the output torque of the motor? It is the size of the wire that changes the output torque of the motor. Plus the power of the magnets on the rotor. Check it with a torque wrench like I explained in an earlier post. This is the only true way of testing these motors.
 

RaceMechaniX

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Apr 27, 2007
Messages
2,803
I think it is safe to assume anyone rewinding is using higher quality wire and more strands in hand or larger diameter wire to increase the slot fill.

So how does one tech a 2-pole ironless motor? There is no detent torque to measure. Additionally some manufactures went to skewed stators which reduces the detent torque, but no ill affect on performance.
 

Mark Bullard

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Joined
Jan 26, 2004
Messages
1,701
I think it is safe to assume anyone rewinding is using higher quality wire and more strands in hand or larger diameter wire to increase the slot fill.

So how does one tech a 2-pole ironless motor? There is no detent torque to measure. Additionally some manufactures went to skewed stators which reduces the detent torque, but no ill affect on performance.

Tyler,
Any motor with a magnetic rotor will pole to the lockup position when placing a DC volts to two of the three leads. Even if it does not have any iron. And by marking the shaft when you do lock it in a position. By turning the rotor to each lock position and counting them till you get back to the marked position it will work as such:

Two pole will have one lock position.
Four pole will have two lock position.
Six pole will have three lock position.
Eight pole will have four lock position.
Etc.
This is what you use when you do not know the number of poles of a motor.
 

RaceMechaniX

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Apr 27, 2007
Messages
2,803
I think I know a guy who has an electric motor shop and could probably start building some nice motors with a little encouragement............
He might need to buy a new rotor balancer though as the one he has may be a touch too big.
 

Steve White

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Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
333
Back in the slot car days there were all kinds of modified motors and parts available to build your own custom setup.
 

Samuel Hagan JR

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Joined
Jul 18, 2010
Messages
4,240
What about having a KV limit and testing the KV at the site. Would that make a difference on rewound motors?
 

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