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Lohring,

Joerg and I have this discussion over dinner about once a month with my frequent trips to Germany for work. We are trying to solve two different problems. In the racing Joerg is trying to target that have a timed race with a mAh limit and/or weight limit on their cells. Guys are running batteries down destroying the cells in the process. Joerg has proposed a mAh counter that each boat would have and would be checked after a race. This would allow racers to run larger capacity cells and not kill a pack every run. It's a good concept that will need development, but also has some flaws. How do you check for tampering, how accurate is a shunt or hall current measurement device to guarantee equal mAh usage? Do you make everyone buy these devices or are they swapped throughout the day and owned by the organization? Is it like a spec motor class where motors are handed out prior to the race? Does everyone have to run a standard connector and cable length? Who is responsible for calibration?

A kv checker has its own problems. You need to tap into the battery leads to get an accurate voltage for kv measurement. You need to clip onto one of the motors wires. You need to ensure the radio is outputting WOT. You need to ensure that ESC has a reasonable timing advance. You need to ensure the ESC does not have a RPM limiter. Joerg was nice enough to send me one and after trying to cheat it I found a number of ways to read lower kv. Kv is a not a good metric to try and tech.

Strictly for limited classes I liked the tech method of length and diameter. It's fairly easy to do in the hull and it only takes an inexpensive caliper to measure. Measuring the weight of the motor after the event would prevent guys like me from building copper intensive motors although it is a pain to pull some motors from boats where installation is tight. It would also require a scale to be brought to events. We would also have to clearly say what is considered part of the motor. Such as the connectors, cooling jacket, etc. If you have ever seen the FAI pylon racing motors than you know what I am talking about. If these were to be incorporated into the rules, I would suggest the top three places get teched after the race for motor weight like tear downs for OPC or stock Zenoah classes. There would be an opportunity to swap a legal motor in for the last heat, but this could be stopped by doing a quick tech at the beginning of the day for length and diameter and adding a sharpie mark, zip tie, sticker or some other method of identifying the motor.

I have only been to one race (outside of TT's) where battery voltage was measured prior to a run. Guys had to leave boats untaped in the hot pits, wait to be teched and could then tape up. This worked well although it was tough on guys with back to back races. This additional tech occurred as HV cells were just introduced and racers were concerned particularly for the limited class that racers using HV cells would have an advantage.

For the record I am not in favor of limiting any of the N, P, Q, S and T classes. I am in favor of finding a simple, easy to tech method applied to "limited" classes. My simple proposal would be a length and diameter limit checked at beginning of the first race and a weight check of the top three finishers at the end of the day. Battery cell count and chemistry limits would still apply. No current limiters, no mAh counters, propeller diameter or pitch limits.

-Tyler
 
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Just some Historical clarifications.

Terry D. - wrong again. Madison Area Fast Electrics was a NAMBA Club when brushed motors and lipos came on the scene. Soon after that P-Limited rules began to be dictated to all of us by a few. When we began to get involved we got shot down. It became clear to us NAMBA wanted membership money but had no interest in offering any type of representation for our interests. There is a reason NAMBA has a wide spread reputation of "the good old boys club".

Later upon losing our pond we joined the IMPBA Badger Club. Soon after that IMPBA started to develop National P-limited rules with specing AQ esc's. Our club was the main and a very loud voice in opposing National P-limited rules. No need to thank us!

Darrin - please explain to us on how all of the current P-limited records in the current NAMBA book were teched and verified. Maybe this would help to explain some things.

I will say this also - it is refreshing to have a forum that allows an open discussion without moderator controlled conversations.

Carry on fellas.
 
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Lohring,

What, not happy that you guys totally F'd up NAMBA FE 1/8th scale and need to keep going??? You are STILL creating non tech-able scenarios out in the field. Kv limits?? Amp limits?? LMAO!! Who's gonna certify the testing equipment IF you can find stuff compatible with boats (it's a lot easier to read an airplane prop with an optical tach than a boat prop). Hell what club is gonna wanna PAY for the testing equipment let alone certify it, store it and keep it certified. What margins of error on amps or Kv?? WTF??? What is this obsession with limiting FE power? But hey why stop with FE? Limit nitro to 20%. Or gas to no tuned pipes............
 
Excellant comments Don, you made some simple yet valid points!!! Spec the motor size and battery volts, if at all, and why limit actual motor output. Im all for some special spec/sport classes just as in nitro and gas, but most classes let racers modify within basic rules, its how progress is made, not EVERYONE gets a trophy at the end of the day - it must be earned.

Wallsters $0.02 worth
 
Okay, now I'm curious.

Don, looking at your signature, everything listed says IMPBA. That has me asking a couple of questions:

1) When was the last time you raced at a NAMBA event?

2) Why are you so adamant about what goes on in NAMBA?
 
Okay, now I'm curious.

Don, looking at your signature, everything listed says IMPBA. That has me asking a couple of questions:

1) When was the last time you raced at a NAMBA event?

2) Why are you so adamant about what goes on in NAMBA?
I have quite a number of good friends in NAMBA (some of who are rather pissed about this train wreck), it impacted IMPBA FE 1/8th scale racers who crossed over (yes there are those who did and now can't) and it being some of the worst rules being created in a long time. Next..................
 
Hi,

Good Morning boys.

The good ist , that most of you are realy honest person and want a nice race with other using a drive that has the level of your drive.

So the best is to think what to do to get all leveld . First is to set only very less limitations as for each you need somthing to control it ,does it fit the limitation.

1, Volts of the batterie. We all know that cell chemistry will only allow some 0,XX volts change after charge , maybee one is higher but has lower internal resistant or some have lower volts but can deliver higher current and some can deliver higher volts and higher current. This belong to each owen pre selection of his cell pack , and for a race it is the most important thing. . counting the number of cells and messuring the volts is ok and enough.

2, The kv of the motors . It is silly to do it as the electronics , the software and some hardware tricks can change it after the race is started. So not so good idea to do that. Let it open as so everyone has somthing that he can change in his setup.

3, Propellersize. Nice idea , with limited batterie a good way . Possible to use a laserprint propeller . only allowe to worke on the leading edge . So everyone can visual see the propeller and if there is a secret the race master can easy told the racer that he has to change the propeller and he can offer him one out of a box that he has from the production line.

Thatˋs all not moore limitation as all moore will make it much moore complicated and the fun will gone.

By the way i show you how raceres in history of F1 open Naviga class drop the voltage messuring . In this class the volts are limited to a max of 42 volts. With silver zink batteries most racer from the east raced in the past the volts if you run two cells moore than the free runing volts allow are up to 48 volts. So some seconds befor messuring they nearly short circuite the batterie that drop down the volts under 42 volts . Go to the messuring and all was good. But now the cell cemistry is realy got a super starter and this short will rise cell temp higher and so during the race the cells are start cooking the electrolyte inside . Battery cook very hoot so after the race a big steam cloude come out of the boat.

Have fun and do not limit to much as there is a way to overcome it. Make it useable for everyone so no one has to become a rulebreaker.

Happy Amps Christian

7031F3FD-641F-46C3-B883-C3DAA07ABDBA.jpeg
 
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Darrin - please explain to us on how all of the current P-limited records in the current NAMBA book were teched and verified. Maybe this would help to explain some things.
Every event I've been to has had the motors tech'd by visual inspection. At the 2012 Nats, Dave Newland inspected every motor personally, and then put a seal on it that had to remain throughout the event.

But you already know all of this, and are just trying to bait me into another bickering match, or trying to get me to say something that would allow you to try to discredit me again. Sorry, won't work.

As for "all those P-LTD records"... I see what you are trying to do here too... Well, I've only ever even attempted a P-LTD record in one class... OPC. Think I was cheating? Do you think Brian, Tyler, Tony Heller were cheating too?

What exactly is your point, Doug?

And, sorry, NOT going to thank you for anything. Your bitterness because you weren't able to keep an AQ2030 together for more than a couple of heats is well known. Go race Gas...
 
Did I mention we made a mistake with the limited rules? Been a couple days. Memory is fading. I can't throw myself down the well until after the nats for it.

In our defense, there wasn't a TP motor, or a Turnigy, or a Raider, or an SSS, or a Leopard. When we wrote that set we were trying to make it so you didn't have to be "in the know" to get into it. Which in truth is what the want to believe was intended with the new 1/8 scale rules. That part I applaud. They just blew it the same way we did. Un-techables.

Has anyone seen my horse? I think it died. I wasn't done beating it.
 
Did I mention we made a mistake with the limited rules? Been a couple days. Memory is fading. I can't throw myself down the well until after the nats for it.

In our defense, there wasn't a TP motor, or a Turnigy, or a Raider, or an SSS, or a Leopard. When we wrote that set we were trying to make it so you didn't have to be "in the know" to get into it. Which in truth is what the want to believe was intended with the new 1/8 scale rules. That part I applaud. They just blew it the same way we did. Un-techables.

Has anyone seen my horse? I think it died. I wasn't done beating it.
Found it Terry.
default_laugh.png


deadhorse.gif
 
"Darrin - please explain to us on how all of the current P-limited records in the current NAMBA book were teched and verified. Maybe this would help to explain some things."

Doug, At the last few NAMBA Straightline TT's the battery voltage to 1/1000V was tested prior to taping up for a record attempt using a Fluke 77 and a card signed by TG was generated.

tech card.jpg
 
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Did I mention we made a mistake with the limited rules? Been a couple days. Memory is fading. I can't throw myself down the well until after the nats for it.

In our defense, there wasn't a TP motor, or a Turnigy, or a Raider, or an SSS, or a Leopard. When we wrote that set we were trying to make it so you didn't have to be "in the know" to get into it. Which in truth is what the want to believe was intended with the new 1/8 scale rules. That part I applaud. They just blew it the same way we did. Un-techables.

Has anyone seen my horse? I think it died. I wasn't done beating it.
We've mentioned it several times, Terry. Deaf-Ears...

To be really fair, the "mistakes" we made have grown into the largest and most continuously subscribed classes in NAMBA FE, the demand for which is still growing. So, frankly, it's worked.

Now, with the changes in manufactures, offerings, updated tech, etc., it's time to make it more stable and "official" moving forward.

Frankly, I'm not sure it was a mistake at the time. It's just been around long enough to require revision, and the system is slow to respond.

Set a physical length and diameter limitation that makes sense, and the class will be viable, techable, and inclusive, and you'll NEVER have to address these rules again.

Just have to settle on the right physical limitations.
 
"Darrin - please explain to us on how all of the current P-limited records in the current NAMBA book were teched and verified. Maybe this would help to explain some things."

Doug, At the last few NAMBA Straightline TT's the battery voltage to 1/1000V was tested prior to taping up for a record attempt using a Fluke 77 and a card signed by TG was generated.

attachicon.gif
tech card.jpg
Yup... and there was that too.

Not going to matter what lengths we went to, Tony... Doug's going to continue thinking we're big cheaters that ruined the hobby (for him...).
 
"Darrin - please explain to us on how all of the current P-limited records in the current NAMBA book were teched and verified. Maybe this would help to explain some things."

Doug, At the last few NAMBA Straightline TT's the battery voltage to 1/1000V was tested prior to taping up for a record attempt using a Fluke 77 and a card signed by TG was generated.

attachicon.gif
tech card.jpg
Yup... and there was that too.

Not going to matter what lengths we went to, Tony... Doug's going to continue thinking we're big cheaters that ruined the hobby (for him...).
Darin, we're friends. I'm friends with Doug too. Hurts me to see all this kerfuffle.
 
I think we just need to let it ride.

It will work.

But you know you might have to have dinner one day with the person you a busting on.

Just remember we all have the best in mind. We have a rule. There is always room to improve all rules.

We have two group been that was as long as I have been racing.

There will be two groups when I am not racing. Looks like I have about 10 more year in me. Thin we have lost 2 more.

So let play and work together. Cross over the line and play with each other it will be OK. But yes the is two groups and will be two for some time.

Mill full course no cut, 1 lap no 50 point, Scale drive dog can be out back 1 drive dog no drive dog under boat, 25.999 no 27, cracker box trim plates sides stock Motor No mod motor do trim plats side ok. There is more if I need to go on.

See some of the rules will keep you from crossing over.

There is a rule that is in the IMPBA rule book I don’t like. some of my frind know what it is but I am not on here bashing it. I did not go to the race.

If and when the time if write it will be fixed but I am not going to Bash it on line. There is other ways to fix things. This is not it.

But we can bust on all of it. Is it going to change. NO

If I started a thread stating. I want IMPBA to change all there rules to NAMBA and the same for NAMBA to IMPBA this would be like the old days with the Hatfields and McCoy‘s.

So just go play.

See you at the pond.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Darin, we're friends. I'm friends with Doug too. Hurts me to see all this kerfuffle.
Sorry, Tony. I'm tired of that guy attacking my credibility every chance he gets. It's unwarranted, undeserved, and I'm not going to stand for it.

However, I will attempt to ignore it.
 
Calm down Darrin. Geez - I sure hope your boss doesn't walk past your cubical and catch you on all these boat forums.

Your trying to re-write my posts - good luck with that. I am in good standing with the racers that know me and your attempt to deflect the points I make will not matter.

You've been all over this 1/8 scale limited rule as not-techable. And you've been all over the newer version of P-Limited as absolutely got to be techable. But yet in the not so distant past (P-Limited) records were set and it appears so with a system for verifying. How does the new 1/8 scale rule not fall into the same category of teching as has been done already?

So what's different? It was OK then and not now? It is OK for some but not others? Just trying to get past the hypocritical part of this.
 
John,

I'm not bashing here either. They used to be able to cross the line, with the new rule, that's not really an option anymore.

This is definitely NOT an NAMBA vs IMPBA thing. Most of us in this thread are friends that have raced together at one event or another. It doesn't matter what card is in the wallet. A little compatibility helps all of us.
 
So what's different? It was OK then and not now? It is OK for some but not others? Just trying to get past the hypocritical part of this.
Doug, I trust you really are NOT that OBTUSE??

We all work within the rules we have at the time.

Some of us, unselfishly, put ourselves out there, publicly, to try to make the system work better, especially when we have experience with the topic at hand and recognize it's pitfalls.

This has zero to do with "records". It has everything to do with recognizing an issue and working to correct it... for the WHOLE organization, not just my local club.

Thank you for your concern regarding my Boss. I'm sure it was heartfelt.
 
Been thinking about this a lot although I'm apparently not supposed to according to one guy. Maybe a kinder gentler splane'n.

Doug, there is no difference between this new 1/8 rule and the old P Limited rule. Same exact problem. Can't verify the motor. Did I mention my dead horse? Looks like he was hit by a train now. Body parts strewn all over the tracks.

So, we've been beating up the guys that proposed this new set for not having tech'd anything. That made me think.....notice the smoke?

They've written a rule that requires reliance on the manufacturers labels and put faith in the racers to not have tampered with them. Not weird. We've done it before. So if you think about it, the limits of their technical inspection would be the same as we used to do with limited. You look at the motor, nod yer head, and assume it's okay. It's bad tech but is in compliance with the rules they were running under. So technically they were following the rule the way they understood it. The "tech" part of the equation actually has been satisfied.

Where the criticism is valid is in the rule itself. Some have been critical of the old limited rules for the inability to verify a motor. That was true. The writers have since acknowledged as much too. Not that it satisfies the critics. I'm still required to jump in a well after the nats. I'll check with Dave on his demise. He wrote the danged thing. haha

The impact on existing racers aside, the problem with the new 1/8 set isn't "what" it is but "how" it is. There are a number of things that although they sound/seem reasonable they simply can't be verified other than reading the labels. The motor and the batteries can't be proven on site. Reliance on the labels isn't sustainable. Also brings every result here after into question. Just heat racing results alone will be looked at with a microscope by people that it doesn't even matter too. This will happen a lot BTW. We know this because we already screwed it up ourselves with limited the same way despite our good intentions.
 
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