Electric Rules

[raptor347]

Bill,

I understand the intent, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

Essentially you're saying you as a club developed and pushed forward a rule set in complete ignorance of how things actually get done in the organization outside your club. You also stated that it's up to smarter individuals to figure out how to actually make it work. When you get input from people with years of national level competition experience stating that the rule set has problems, you blow them off with "The rule is the rule. If it requires teching well let’s leave that to the experts".

As one of the "experts" that get to have all the fun of unwinding this bucket of worms, I truly wish you guys had done a bit more research outside your club. Your rule set has as many holes in it as P-ltd with a few new ones added. My input on P-ltd 10 years ago was that it should never be a national class, we've been trying to unravel that hairball for 10 years. I know I talked to Bob Bracket at the 2015 nats about the parts of your club rules that just wouldn't work at the national level. What it comes down to is good club rules aren't detailed enough to make good national level rules. If you don't have the experience at the upper levels of competition, details that are important in the grand scheme get missed. The knowledge base was there if you guys had reached out.

You've blown off many of your "experts" in this thread when they've stated their concerns, including two past national champions (one a multi time winner) that travel to national events across the country. These are racers with 15-20 years of experience in what does and doesn't work in FE. The racers that did all the difficult development early on as the technology came into existence in the hobby. Racers that not only run 1/8 scale but all the FE classes, quite a few run gas and nitro too. To be honest you guys got into FE only after it became pretty easy to put a system together and have it run reliably.

What's bothering me is you guys didn't do your homework. The result is I and the other "experts" get to spend a bunch of time cleaning up the mess. Why didn't you call the "experts" in the first place?

The vote was 371 to 157. Closer to 2:1 than 4:1. I think with a little education as to what the actual effects of this rule change were going to be, the numbers would be different.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

if everyone is done with the back and forth, how about doing something constructive in this thread:

1) If you think the rules are faulty, be specific as to what is faulty and why

2) Give specific things to fix the rules and why those things will work rather than saying why something else won't work

I've read things about parts not being able to be "teched" so someone that knows how to do so should give their thoughts on how to do so at the pond.

I've read things about battery packs not being the same as labeled so if someone has a way of testing packs to make sure the packs used are legal, speak up

BTW, what makes someone an "expert" on fast electric power? Can someone clarify for me which one is required:

1) Do you need a bachelor's or masters in electronics?

2) Can you get by just knowing Ohm's Law?

3) Do you have to have several US-1's

4) Does it require a minimum number of laps driving an electric powered boat?

 

[T.S.Davis]

Come on man. Really? How about don't submit rules you claim work when your testing is incomplete. Nobody has ever verified a boat in the 3 years of claimed success. Bill says basically that "how" to verify compliance is for someone with more knowledge than himself. The guy that penned the proposal that doesn't know how to verify it sells equipment to the guys running the "new" rules. What? Everyone is cool with that?

We appreciate the effort you're putting into making the voices of reason out to be a'holes but NAMBA was duped.

At the pond, practically, you can't tech the C rating, the mah, or the motor wind. You could have a kv checker on site but that still doesn't account for bearings etc. I'm sure im forgetting some. There are no practical solutions.

The rule as written only requires that those things be verified by reading the manufacturers label so it doesn't really matter. No solve for that. See above.

Proposing a rule you don't know how to manage because you haven't managed it is wrong regardless of experience level. We know this because we have screwed up in this regard ourselves. Insert P Limited.

The set also renders setups that some have spent nearly a decade with.....obsolete. No fix for that other than for them to drop more coin. Or sell it to someone who is going to drop more coin.

 

[Don Ferrette]

If you were actually paying attention Mark instead of burying your nose up Lohring and Bill's asses then you'd already know the answers to the first half of your post. As for the rest, that's pure sarcasm not worthy of any keystrokes. Go back and re-read Brian's last post as many as needed until it sinks in..........

 

[Hydro Junkie]

If you were actually paying attention Mark instead of burying your nose up Lohring and Bill's asses then you'd already know the answers to the first half of your post. As for the rest, that's pure sarcasm not worthy of any keystrokes. Go back and re-read Brian's last post as many as needed until it sinks in..........

Not burying my nose anywhere, Don. I don't have any plans to do an electric any time soon, just because of the fighting going on in this and the other thread. That said, I thought my last post had a very simple message:

Rather than pick the voted on and approved FE rules and those that sponsored it apart, give an option or two on ways to fix it.

I haven't seen anyone do that yet, INCLUDING YOU DON. If you can come up with a way to fix what you all are sceaming is broken, SPEAK UP!!!

BTW, just for the record, I voted no on the proposed rule change since I could see the fight that was coming

 

[John Borden]

I would like us to just let it rest you fingers need a brake.

I am on my to race boat. There is 88 post now.

As I have stated I did support this. How about laying of Bill as we all love racing scales.

Can what for Monday to get a update from all the FE Scale and Nitro Scale that went out and raced and tested.

That will help build up the class.

You can bass on me if you would like to talk. I believe in talking.

I will see if I can get some video up on Facebook of our racing.

See you at the pond.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Darin Jordan]

BTW, what makes someone an "expert" on fast electric power? Can someone clarify for me which one is required:

1) Do you need a bachelor's or masters in electronics?

2) Can you get by just knowing Ohm's Law?

3) Do you have to have several US-1's

4) Does it require a minimum number of laps driving an electric powered boat?

From what I gather from one post above, it's actually simpler than that.... Doug Peterson gets to determine who the "experts" are. Pretty simple.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

So that's all it takes? I should have figured my years of electrical and avionics training and decades of experience weren't enough to know anything, other than too much voltage will kill a circuit just as fast as too much current. Oh wait, that was disproved already by someone in either this or the other thread so never mind

 

[Darin Jordan]

So that's all it takes? I should have figured my years of electrical and avionics training and decades of experience weren't enough to know anything, other than too much voltage will kill a circuit just as fast as too much current. Oh wait, that was disproved already by someone in either this or the other thread so never mind

Unfortunately, as with me, with my BS in S/W Engineering, Minor in EE, 30+ Years of working for Boeing in Electronics and Electrical Engineering, and Real-Time S/W Engineering, racing FE since 2005, having developed an entire line-up of FE RTRs for Pro Boat, and even a little bit of success in the FE Racing arena... Yes... apparently that's all it takes. Our real-world qualifications don't count. Just the opinion of one, bitter, former FE-er who took his toys and ran to the Gas boat group.

Sorry, apparently that's just how it is...

 

[Kevin Sheren]

First off guys I don't have a dog in this hunt. Something everyone that proposes a rule change needs to think about and it doesn't matter if it is IMPBA or NAMBA. Is the following copied from the IMPBA rule book. It doesn't need to be in the NAMBA rule book it is JUST COMMON SENSE. It is just good for model boating!!!!

Guideline: Does it benefit the IMPBA, and does it benefit the membership?

(It must benefit both)​

​

I understand it is not an IMPBA issue but replace the name IMPBA with ORGANIZATION and it will work. It needs to benefit the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION NOT JUST A SELECT FEW.

End of my rant.

Kevin

 

[Mikemalloy]

This will be my last post on this as I feel no matter what I say someone will be negative and complain about the issue instead of figuring out away to improve the situation. Brian Buass thank you on being informative on your last post and not bashing someone else’s post. Darn Jordan your comment about me not teching at a IMPBA, NAMBA, national event you are correct but I’ve been involved with R/C for years and have teched and officiated at ROAR events, so I have the understanding how it works. Not taking away from what you have accomplished with ProBoat great stuff. I’ve seen your motor analysis awhile back on the motor testing and break down of different motors I thought was very informative therefore I don’t question your knowledge base.. So now my question is when fellow members disagreed with the proposal as far as I know ranted and raved “ it’s dumb, stupid, bad idea” ect...but no specific details..I could be wrong on this, correct me if I’m wrong but be nice about it.

Brian Buass you in a earlier post that you had talked with Bob Brackett and discussed that the club rules weren’t detailed enough for national level.. could you elaborate on that please? Do we need to be that detailed on a class (1/8 FE SCALE)hydro that doesn’t have big numbers at a national event..Bill B proposal and passing of the rule was not intended to piss anybody off but to have a solid foundation for everyone to race 1/8 Scale FE at a NAMBA event. Those rules in place now have worked in R/C U for a couple of years and now for John Borden and his club in a Texas. IMO I think we are blowing this way out, rules are not set in stone and will change as technology changes. Anyways I’m done here, feel free to pm if needed, Thank you for all the input see you on the pond.

 

[Doug Smock]

There are always issues when you try to inject common sense into any subject matter.lol Have a great weekend fellas!

 

[T.S.Davis]

The solution is there is no solution. It can't be "fixed". This is the part that keeps getting ignored.

"tell us how to fix it"

"ya can't"

"yeah but how would you fix it?"

"I can't fix it either"

"instead of being weeny about it, tell us what's wrong with it"

"we did. the chairman told you it wasn't detailed enough and you went for it anyway"

"well at least tell us how to tech it"

"Holy crap! ya can't. aren't you listening?"

"yer so negative. clearly the problem is you"

The rule book isn't intended to lay out a shopping list for racers. Well, it shouldn't be. It's there to define the parameters of the classes, safety, organization guidelines, etc. We have a description of a mono in there too. It doesn't say to go buy a Titan 33 for P mono. So how do people find out what to buy? They ask.

It should have been left as it was and those groups that wanted to do something different could have done exactly that. Our little group is doing this with limited/spec. It did get proposed to IMPBA. The BOD looked it over decided it wasn't quite ready for prime time. Which is what should have happened with this proposal. As has been mentioned, there is no provision like the in NAMBA.

The fix is for NAMBA to step in and recognize the impossible to tech parameters and dial back to the original rule set. As far as I know there are no provisions for such a thing. I doubt it's ever happened where a rule that was unenforceable was passed. Wasn't there some hiccup with the gas rules a few years ago that needed some emergency intervention?

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darn Jordan your comment about me not teching at a IMPBA, NAMBA, national event you are correct but I’ve been involved with R/C for years and have teched and officiated at ROAR events, so I have the understanding how it works... So now my question is when fellow members disagreed with the proposal as far as I know ranted and raved “ it’s dumb, stupid, bad idea” ect...but no specific details..I could be wrong on this, correct me if I’m wrong but be nice about it.

First, I've never said "it's dumb, stupid", etc... I likely did suggest that it was a bad idea, based on specific details.

For example:

mAh - HOW do you tech this? Label? I was sponsored by ThunderPower for years, and when they went from 65 to 70C packs, I asked, specifically, "Are the 70C packs going to buy me anything?". Their Tech guys at the time resonded "No, it's just a sticker change"... This is COMMON, and wide-spread.

So, how to you actually TECH mAh? Well, you take the battery pack, charge it to a known cutoff, discharge it, and read the results on the specialized equipment that reports such things (chargers, etc.). However:

1) Who certifies the equipment?

2) How do you control the temperature, since voltage levels are VERY MUCH affected by even small changes in temp?

3) What is to tolerance??

4) How is the tolerance taken into consideration, since many manufacturers put 5100mAh labels, for example, on 5000mAh packs, and vice-versa, depending on how the cells tested at the factory?

5) How do you tech "C-Rating"?? Again, relying on labels?

How do you tech Motor KV?

1) Who decides the process?

2) Who decides what the equipment for testing is going to be?

3) Who certifies the equipment?

4) Can you just rely on the manufacturers sticker/labeling? Look at my P-LTD motor testing and notice the WIDE variance, even from the same batch of motors.

5) What is the tolerance?? The rules state the allowed KV. "Per the rules", if my 1527 tests at 855KV instead of 850 or less, I'm illegal.

How do you tech ESC Amp Ratings?? Rule states "Any ESC may be use as long as it is rated to a minimum of 130A"??

1) Are we relying on the manufacturers specs??

2) How do you test the MINIMUM rating of an ESC??

Same issues that we presently have with P-LTD exist, and were amplified, with this rule proposal. Had the group proposing it consulted with people outside of their limited circle, prior to getting this out for a vote, all of the above is what they would have been asked.

The "Solutions" have also been discussed, but induce fear in many because it doesn't provide a clean, neat, recipe for "success". Requires some though about what you are building.

1) Place a Physical motor size limitation, which will provide an ultimate maximum amount of power that will be available for a given voltage level.

2) Use a physical current-limiting device, which presently doesn't seem to exist that would suit our power levels and parameters.

#1 is "scary" because it requires an understanding that KV has a practical limit at a given voltage if you want to finish heats, but ultimately leaves the choice up to the user. Most will make the wise choice. Some might push the limits, but WILL find them and not finish the heat... because of heat.

However, #1 is the MOST techable solution, perhaps with an additional "weight limit" for the motor as well. The weight begins to add in another "gray" area, because you have external components and intrusiveness to consider (with/without wires? with/without contacts? with/without water jackets? etc). Might be something you can't avoid, but when you add in weight, you require invasive methods to tech. Something Nitro/Gas guys are used to, so maybe not a big deal to them.

 

[Darin Jordan]

I guess the point is, Mike and others, that some of these issue DON'T HAVE solutions, and that those of us pointing that out are being accused of NOT proposing solutions, and/or NOT PROVIDING solutions...

Fact is that, we have.

 

[Christian Lucas]

Hi,

i am not from the staates but i have seeing a lot of competition, Naviga, NAMBA and IMPBU .

From my sight use a energy limiter like the pylonracer and F5B guys use and set a waight limit.

Only limiting the motor or the batteries is to less. See how the competitor in the Naviga classes push the cells by higher chargin voltage and by place the batteriepack in a strong chase that prevent the cell blow .For the last race some charge up to very high voltage each cell so they have a lot moore energy in the pack and for them it dosnˋt matter that the batterie is dead after one run. Try the next to win.

But please aske the Jags Team J. Mirkwitschka , he has a clever energy counting system that will show after the race how much you have suck out of the batterie . If you are over the limit you will get some minus seconds that will get you back so you will never think about going over the limit.

Happy Amps Christian

 

[Mike Hughes]

Nice post Darrin, basically covers everything that will have to happen at a 2 lap event if someone sets a record. I wont be able to verify any of those things. When a nitro motor sets a record we tear down that motor and measure it to make sure that it fits within the rules stated for that class. I guess with electric I will verify nothing and then sign my name stating that. That just dont sound right to me.

Since most of the time we have 2 laps, Darrin or Brian show up. These are my experts that I refer to when it comes to the electric side of things.

Im just wondering why would we need to make this a rule at the national level? The classes ran fine within their districts at the club with out an issue. Maybe it was so records could be set? Maybe it was to get rid of the 10s boats that ran the big props that they could not complete with at a nationals. Just throwing that out there. The orginal rule did not excluded anyone.

Mike

 

[John Borden]

Here is my Scale. Had lots of fun this weekend.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HTV Boats]

Reading through all the disputes here and personal differences there actually is some good information. So I am glad this "discussion" did not get locked down. I have only run FE for 8 years and have been able to run in heat races and time trials. Not as much opportunity for races as nitro and gas but things are changing. With some gas experience and 30+ years in nitro I enjoy FE and its challenges. I also look for opportunities to incorporate FE classes in our district, (NAMBA 3) Plus going to bordering IMPBA events annually.

The point I want to make is FE may be the best cost alternative to attract new members. Keep that in mind. So with the inevitable evolution of electric power and need for an enforceable rule structure we need to discuss, listen, and learn. Mistakes will be made but as in racing when you lose, recognize why, and make positive changes for a better outcome.

Mic

 

[LohringMiller]

Lets talk about what will actually control power and is easy to tech.

The first is battery voltage. You can easily check a fully charged battery with a voltmeter in the boat just before a race.

Motor power potential is only a little more difficult. [SIZE=12pt]Power at max efficiency [W] = C * weight [g] * rpm / 10000
C is a constant which is basically 1 for BL motors of 600 size (LMT 19 series, Hacker B50 series). It's smaller than 1 for smaller motors (aprox. 0.85 for 480 size) and bigger for bigger motors (like 1.2 for LMT 22 series). This constant describes that for smaller motors more weight is "wasted" for the case. (formula thanks to Jörg Mrkwitschka[/SIZE]) Case dimensions are an approximation of weight, but actually weighing motors prevents stuffing more copper and magnet into a specified case size. KV checking would also be needed, but a quick no load prop rpm reading with an optical tach and a fully charged battery should be good enough. By the way, KV has nothing to do with power by itself. It just sets the motors rpm on a particular voltage.

The last power producing variable is current and that's what most of the controversy is about. An electronic "fuse" or output limiter is used in airplane events. At present, motor and/or ESC capacity is most often used as the limit in boats. I think propeller diameter is an easy to tech limiter if motor rpm (KV) is also limited.

I don't believe you need to limit total battery capacity. Today lithium polymer batteries can deliver unreasonable amounts of current in modest sizes. If you limit the above, racers will only use batteries big enough for the particular race. Current capacity won't enter in if the above methods are used to control power and especially current to reasonable levels. I would suggest 200 amps as a target maximum. It will take some careful testing to determine the parameters needed to meet this limit. Developing efficient hulls and propellers will then become the most important factor in speed.

Lohring Miller