DSM and races.. is it time?

Discussion in 'General RC Boating Forum' started by Grimracer, Sep 6, 2019.

intlwaters.com

Help Support intlwaters.com:

  1. Sep 10, 2019 #61

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,510
    Location:
    Marysville WA
    Grim, that's actually one of the features I like on the 4PLS, you can slow the servos down. I have my radio set up to turn the rudder at 50% speed and return to center at 100%. I don't think slowing down the servos is the way to go. Being able to set them to a rotate at a desired speed, on the other hand, can only make servos more user friendly and versatile.
     
  2. Sep 10, 2019 #62

    Terry Keeley

    Terry Keeley

    Terry Keeley

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2002
    Messages:
    5,789
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada, eh!

    Hey. We give away all glass now at our Can-Am. :D
     
  3. Sep 10, 2019 #63

    HTV Boats

    HTV Boats

    HTV Boats

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,122
    Location:
    Cape Coral Florida
    As most of us updated to DSM's there is no option on computer registration to recognize and separate racing pairs. So we fudged and put down crystals. I think some of the bitching was sour grapes as guys who paired, traveled and wanted a stable pit minutes before competition tended to be experienced winning racers. So call them team race cheaters and that's why they won.
    Now are these "teams" all using the same frequencies and 4 to 6 guys never race? I don't think so. I used to use #63 which I couldn't find anywhere so Jay and I would be able to run anyone else. If two "teams" use different frequencies then they still can draw everyone else. In a final 6 format any pair I know will welcome adjusting their pit procedure,( a final 6 leaves a lot of good people standing around who didn't make the cut)
    I know the people who register and run events. (I still do that) like the computer doing all the scrambling. less work, If your race won't allow racers to pair that's fine, If your race says pairs can use false frequencies as long as no pair uses the same one, and accommodate people to give us a choice where we might race or not,would that hurt racing as we know it?
    Mic
     
  4. Sep 10, 2019 #64

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    7,547
    Location:
    Eau Claire WI
    Understand all you are saying.. thanks for chiming in... (I feel bad you felt I had a motivation behind this.. I did and do not.. I was just asking the question)...

    in the end the current system allows one to "Choose" whom they might or might not race with.. and that seem to be the issue. Originally this was intended to "control" frequency conflicts.. we dont have that issue anymore (say most).. so.. do we still need it?

    I am on the fence.. as long as we have mhz radios we have an opportunity for interference.. and that in part becomes a safety issue.. Having said this I dont think the IMPBA has ever stated frequency control was for safety of the racer or spectator.. (I need to look into this, I am not sure)..

    I am not suggesting we dump it or keep it.. I am doing nothing more then asking the question.



    Grim
     
  5. Sep 10, 2019 #65

    JimZaremski

    JimZaremski

    JimZaremski

    Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    741
    Location:
    Detroit area
    No, I think it's still important, especially since most races don't bother with impounding any more. as long as there are still people using analog radios, the chances of a frequency conflict are still there, so the CD/organizer should still be aware of who's bringing what even if it's 90% digital. If you're going to lie about what you have for whatever reason, then anything bad that happens is on you. And since we generally run shootout format in both of my clubs, it's not necessarily going to work to your advantage anyway.

    it's minimal effort to put a spot for freq/alt freq on the sign up sheet, and I've usually only had to ask one or two people for their radio type when they email or post their entries.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  6. Sep 10, 2019 #66

    DPeterson

    DPeterson

    DPeterson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    543
    It will be interesting to observe going forward when more and more racers play the MHZ-DSM card with the extra burden that is put on the race organizers when they try to sort out all the numbers and build heat sheets. It will be yet another reason to not host a race.
     
  7. Sep 10, 2019 #67

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    562
    Allowing people to enter on the same MHZ freq is easily solvable, they all have to have a secondary freq anyway for runoff or LOVE plan finals, so just make it a policy to not allow people to enter on the same MHZ freq period. Allows people to still use their MHZ radios if they choose, yet places no additional burden on the organizers Maybe it's possible to incorporate in the online signup but that is above my paygrade. Won't solve the problem of iffy integrity of the CDs
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  8. Sep 10, 2019 #68

    Greg Bonahoom

    Greg Bonahoom

    Greg Bonahoom

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    347
    Location:
    Lakeville, MN
    We could ask the two race management websites to add a field for “racing team”. The option could be enabled or disabled by the Contest director. If enabled, the algorithm would scramble the heats and keep any members with the same “racing team” name out of each other’s heats when possible. (Same as it currently does for MHZ) This way people could avoid using the frequency system for unintended purposes (which seems to upset people) and allows the contest director to have an option to be as inclusive as possible, without having to manually setup heats.
     
  9. Sep 10, 2019 #69

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    562
    Greg, this whole discussion is basically about the fact that the online sites do not scramble heats very well. Many times you will race someone three times and someone else 0 times. This fact is what is creating the heartburn. Keeping a system that enables teams means keeping a system that is basically unequal. No matrix is totally fair, someone will almost always race someone more than somebody else, but keeping a system where you race someone of your choosing 0 times is in need of changing. Times have changed, computing power is enormous it is time to make our systems more fair, it may be inconvenient for some.
     
    Andy Greene likes this.
  10. Sep 10, 2019 #70

    Don Ferrette

    Don Ferrette

    Don Ferrette

    Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    14,894
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, Virginia
    "......it is time to make our systems more fair, it may be inconvenient for some"

    I find it amusing that the way some of you come across this is a problem on a massive scale, I have yet to attend a race local or national level where someone actually complained about guys teaming up. So define what is fair? While a few of you seem to have wadded up panties over racers who "team up" how about those who set up the races that manipulate the heats for themselves and/or club members? THAT has been going for a long time, well before DSM and even in recent DSM dominant events. Some were downright blatant, others thought they were not noticed but it was and some of those names might surprise you (don't ask not gonna go there but they know who they are). As long as the human factor is involved there will always be someone who will exploit things, that will never change. Instead of expending soooo much energy on something like this how about putting forth the same level of intensity in figuring out how to stop the drastically dwindling numbers of actual racers. Hint - this "issue" will do ZERO to help that..........
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
    JRXHydros and Norm Doerr like this.
  11. Sep 10, 2019 #71

    Danny King

    Danny King

    Danny King

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,251
    Maybe nobody bitches about it Don because of the reaction of a few on here already.

    I have noticed it since being back almost 7 yrs. and i personally think it SUCKS!!!!!!

    Not because of any team or any advantage. And yes i understand the “I want this person to pit for me and that.”

    My main reason for hating it is for 2 or 3 or 4 boat heats. It make it so much hard to combine heats. As the person running the event looks at the paper and doesn’t combine because there’s a conflict. Only some people realize the conflict is people want to put for each other. So we run more heats and smaller ones. Which definitely effects the integrity of the event. It Atleast effects the competitiveness in a event. A true shootout like Brandon’s winter nitro race minimizes this. You truly have to beat people to win. Not luck of the draw that can be effected by splitting into so many heats.
    We mostly don’t truly have a competition but a exhibition with a antiquated scoring system.
    If a format that truly scrambled drivers in heats was used. Most of the time your pit guy of choice would be available. The burden should be on the driver not the cd or at a cost to quality.
    I think spending a thousand bucks to travel to a race to run in 3 boat heat so guys can have the pit person of choice is ridiculous. So it definitely manipulates racing.
    If you haven’t been to the winter nitro race in Brandon it is awesome. 6 good boats in each of the last 2 heats for the win. Instead of what the rest do.
    Please name another type of racing that races like we do??? You can’t.
    Charleston will be a great example. A very full field with some large classes and there isn’t time to ask everyone if it’s ok to combine. info should be right in front of the cd. And this no way a shot at Charleston.
    When was the last time any of you walked up to a spectator and asked them if they have any questions or what they thought??
    I do it all the time. Some common ones. I don’t understand how this works? You mean you can win the whole weekend and never had to race 2nd or 3rd place?
    Why is there only 2 or 3 boats in the heat when there was more in the other. Why do they run 6-8 at a time.
    It truly defies competitive thinking.
    No system is perfect but model boating uses the worst one I’ve ever seen. In racing.
    And then it gets manipulated by teaming up.
    Funny how the guys getting the most lit up are the ones lying on the sheets to manipulate who you race.
     
    topfuel443 likes this.
  12. Sep 11, 2019 at 12:40 AM #72

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Rudy Formanek

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    562
    The ones wanting this fixed don't mind expending the energy to fix this, only the ones expending soooooo much energy to keep it broke. Simple fix, if you enter on Mhz only one person per freq.
     
  13. Sep 11, 2019 at 12:52 AM #73

    Don Ferrette

    Don Ferrette

    Don Ferrette

    Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Messages:
    14,894
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, Virginia
    Danny I will absolutely 100% agree on the heat thing, I don't want to see a 6 boat heat followed by say a 3 boat heat either. A thought- maybe requesting the alternate freq. be DSM for those who are working together with the understanding that they might have to combine as others drop out? I still have no issues with guys working together who are familiar with each others stuff. I've been on the other end with pitman "volunteers" who didn't know their azz from 2nd base and got screwed because of it so this blade has two sides. And generally it's usually just the twins that I want a knowledgeable person helping. As for asking or talking to spectators- all the time my friend. And Charleston.... they do combine all the time, typically done by the pit boss and CDs a few heats in advance (which is why they are always calling multiple upcoming heats down to the pits). Heck back when John Knight ran things he'd often ask me to help CD (which I did) and I would be getting pit boss check ins as quick as possible to look at combining/moving drivers in upcoming heats if need be usually while the retrieve boat was out. And as for your closing sentence- don't make that broad brush stroke either, I've said it before and I'll say it again- I'll race anyone anytime. There may be some who do try to avoid running someone in particular but I am not one of those........
     
  14. Sep 11, 2019 at 1:21 AM #74

    Danny King

    Danny King

    Danny King

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,251
    Or how about everyone sign up on what they are running and expect to be bumped if signed up on the same frequency. Instead of having the cd or pit boss have to ask. Just accept you may have to run a heat or 2 without the pit guy. Then atleast the CD has the accurate info right in front of him.
    I THOUGHT in all i wrote I made it clear I didn’t believe any of the guys who practice this do it for a “who i do”and “who Im afraid to race” reasoning.
    But it does not change the fact that by intentionally using the same frequency or signing up on it does knowingly manipulate it. It just does. And it does effect who you don’t race even if it’s only one person. No matter the reason.
    And yes i understand it perfectly. I own one and i don’t want it wrecked either. But putting my want in front of it doesn’t change it.
    I totally understand it’s being done not for a competitive advantage but it is still being done.
    And judging by the response on here, it will not fly at all in the pits.
    If we all step up. And help call for each other when not in our heats that will help too.
    Everyone one of you guys i would give anything to you needed at a race. If I have it your welcome to it. And I’d be shocked if any wouldn’t do it in return.
    I believe we all have our own ideas, that’s the type of person that gets in this hobby. But we are all part of a tight group. We can work together better then We can’t.
    This is talked about a lot more but many won’t stand up and say, because of the way this started off. We are better then this!!!
     
    topfuel443 likes this.
  15. Sep 11, 2019 at 1:39 AM #75

    Daniel's Racing

    Daniel's Racing

    Daniel's Racing

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    Have you been living under a rock ? Lol.

     
  16. Sep 11, 2019 at 2:49 AM #76

    Jim Allen

    Jim Allen

    Jim Allen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,536
    Location:
    Graham, NC
    Come to Liberty, NC on October 5 & 6, 2019. If you haven't attended a pylon racing event you'll be very surprised at what you hear & see! I'll be one of the judges at pylon #1 where 200 MPH planes make a 180* turn, instantly!!

    Jim Allen
     
  17. Sep 11, 2019 at 3:26 AM #77

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,510
    Location:
    Marysville WA
    If the system is being manipulated, why not just change the system?
    As I said in an earlier post, the computer program R/C Unlimiteds uses gives a random draw for each heat. The person running the computer puts in the boat, the driver and the frequency, tells the system how many flights to program and hits start. The human factor is removed since the only other inputs are positions at the end of each flight and if someone withdraws a boat. Granted, there are those that do claim to be on the same MHz channel so they can run as a team but, overall, it's not an issue since a majority of the competitors arrange for their spotters before the first heat starts.
     
  18. Sep 11, 2019 at 12:30 PM #78

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    7,547
    Location:
    Eau Claire WI
    Mark.. as you know.. (to me...maybe just me) launching an Electric boat is quite a bit different then a Nitro.

    Grim
     
  19. Sep 11, 2019 at 1:08 PM #79

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Hydro Junkie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,510
    Location:
    Marysville WA
    Yes, it is. I don't know how you all do it in your area but, here in Washington, the boats are not given a throw launch. When the scale electrics are launched, they are just sat in the water, where they wait until one minute(more or less, depending on the driver) prior to the start before they hit the throttle. To make it even more interesting, the boats don't go to the left hand corner. They are driven across the infield to the left of the start/finish buoy, turning to the right after passing to the left of the middle straight buoy. To make things even more interesting, we actually use TWO different verbal countdown recordings, one for the electrics and one for nitro and gas.
     
  20. Sep 11, 2019 at 7:52 PM #80

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Grimracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    7,547
    Location:
    Eau Claire WI
    Now that this seems to have run its course.. and in that I have become a complete ahole to some.. I dont want it to fade away without a conclusion. I aint taking that for nothing! LOL

    Reading the entire thread from start to finish it looks like..

    The majority seem to understand the issue. We are using frequency registration to help align our pit men.

    The majority are open to some kind of change.

    The majority understand (do they agree?) that dew to the conflicts the old frequency systems allows. Those would like to see a change to this system to better help the race organizers setup heats more easily.



    Who wants to draft the conclusion (not going to be me, I was dumb enough to ask the question).. the next post is yours.. if you do not have a conclusion please save your post until after that point.. thanks

    Grim
     

Share This Page

arrow_white