Clean Start Window

[Don Ferrette]

Hey Brad I see this path you spell out and maybe that will work out, I do think it is WAY too much to expect the CD to have to look at some crappy screen in the sun, determine what boat (or boats) are over, or maybe what is the 1st legal boat would be easier. At any rate they have a great deal going on in a very short time span, and will make mistakes, with the laptop will this ALWAYS make the task better? There are always weak points in any system we come up with, and in the end human judgement will be the final word. Just saying...

"Crappy screen in the sun"?? Where are you racing?

 

[Don Ferrette]

While I do agree, calling starts is an issue, I think we have an even bigger issue to deal with and that's the corners. When you have several boats doing 50+, it's almost impossible to have an accurate call in terms of lane violations and, in some cases, buoy cuts. For example, you have two white boats in close proximity, one cuts a buoy. Can you tell, within a second or two, which boat it was, especially if they have very similar graphics? We may need to have some sort of high level camera platform just for this kind of situation as well. Then again, how do you use that high level camera? Is it used as a review only(like in the NFL) or is it used to make the calls, meaning you would need someone watching a monitor for the entire heat?

LMAO!!! So where are you going to get the money for something like this?? Guys bxtch over paying $10 a boat to enter. You sure seem to have a lot to say lately about how to "fix" these all these "problems" we supposedly have, so when was the last time you actually RACED Mark?? (and yes that's totally relevant) The start line camera to laptop system worked beautifully in Charleston, one person (CD) watching the start and one person watching the screen as backup. The only reason they scrapped it was they got tired of wasted so much time with drivers arguing the call thinking their eyesight was better than a camera or something was "wrong" with it. I've always used a clipboard held up along the right side of my head sighted right along the starting line. The only thing seen is the line, no distractions from peripheral vision and if I see any part of a boat before the first sound of the start horn your azz gets called over. And before anyone says it, the right corner to start line travel lanes should be watched by the corner judge not the CD. Been doing it like this for years and those who've worked with me in the CD tower know we typically nail it each time.............

 

[Shark]

While I do agree, calling starts is an issue, I think we have an even bigger issue to deal with and that's the corners. When you have several boats doing 50+, it's almost impossible to have an accurate call in terms of lane violations and, in some cases, buoy cuts. For example, you have two white boats in close proximity, one cuts a buoy. Can you tell, within a second or two, which boat it was, especially if they have very similar graphics? We may need to have some sort of high level camera platform just for this kind of situation as well. Then again, how do you use that high level camera? Is it used as a review only(like in the NFL) or is it used to make the calls, meaning you would need someone watching a monitor for the entire heat?

Hydro, this brings up a good point. There is a dynamic at play here that some boaters just wont recognize... "SPEED vs OPTICS"... Everyone thinks they can see everything going at distance and full speed, but in the corners, as you just mentioned, there is confusion.

All forms of racing use "cameras" to capture every aspect of a race, heck, even PINE WOOD DERBY competitions are using cameras to capture starts, finishes and such.. Our racing is clearly more sophisticated than Pine Wood Derby, but as I mentioned, we are stuck in 19th century thinking.
http://grandprix-software-central.com/index.php

There are many tools out there that we could incorporate ( along with well written rules ) that could make racing calls that much better. Simply saying accepting a bad call is a part of racing is to admit the system is flawed, and if the system is flawed, then it cannot be equal or fair.

Corner Drones, hovering above a corner can send live streaming video to a laptop at the CD table, and this video can be reviewed by a corner judge should there be some dispute over who did what..

Lets accept reality for a moment, some of our gas boats are going 80+ mph side by side, each pushing a giant roostertail over 20 feet long and once they turn, vision is obscured of the outside boats and for the most part, CD's have to "guess" at what happened, versus "knowing" what happened.

WIth a well written "review" rule, we could settle these disputes after the completion of a heat and the use of Drone Footage over a corner.

Cost is a non factor, most people have a laptop, there is good software already out there to capture and replay video from whatever source and Drones are easily affordable.

If the Pine Wood Derby felt that the use of replay cameras brought fairness and equality to their racing platforms, what is wrong with us?

Just because we have used mic cords and clipboards for decades doesnt mean we ignore progress in the future.

 

[Shark]

GRANDPRIX softare...

http://grandprix-software-central.com/index.php/shopping/product/100-rcrp

 

[Don Ferrette]

"Cost is a non factor, most people have a laptop, there is good software already out there to capture and replay video from whatever source and Drones are easily affordable."

Cost IS a factor! So you just assume people will bring laptops to donate/use? Are they donating their time too? Are they CD qualified? Who's gonna buy the software? A drone with decent flight time, stability, camera resolution and good quality live down link video transmission (all needed for what you propose) will run $800 minimum ( the decent ones are $1000 and up) and you'll need at least 2 (plus plenty of back up batteries) and someone willing to spend a weekend piloting each one just hovering over a corner? You assuming they will donate their time as well? Clubs hosting races have always struggled to get enough qualified bodies in the tower to call heats and somehow you are gonna get another 1/2 dozen people to magically show up and do this for an entire weekend non stop? For free? With all of this hoopla someone would think these were professionals racing for thousands of dollars rather than a $10 plaque to hang on the wall for playing with TOY BOATS...........

 

[Shark]

Yes DON, Cost will always be a factor, but with regard to "toy boats", toys dont cost $2500.00 to play with, and that COST is what's important in this conversation. Travel to and from races goes beyond "toys", and its this kind of 19th century thinking that needs to replaced.

These are expensive racing machines, not "toys". We race in a circuit and not in our bedrooms. There is an inherent cost to everything, but looking forward, we have to factor in the "cost" of maintaining our hobby with good clean racing and that includes the operation of the races themselves. Nothing drives away competitors more than a crappy race where calls are blown or Royalty rules...

Lets be honest. This hobby isnt growing to its full potential, and there are many factors for this.

However, if we are to continue to provide competitive racing circuits, then we need to move our thinking forward and not backwards. Everything about our hobby has transitioned over the 51 years I've been involved.

Change has always been met with obstruction in this hobby, yet, it still transitioned anyways.

Veterans should know this. The "old" ways are not the "good" ways. We have just gotten by with the "old" ways, and tomorrows boaters expect much better out of our leadership as veterans.

With our combined knowledge of this hobby, we can set the future for model boating onto a better path, a more competitive path and this will in turn grow this hobby.

Staying with the "status quo" simply drives boaters away.

As for drones, they can "PILOT" themselves. They can be programmed to simply hover in one position and broadcast live feeds. Yes, there will be a need for batteries and such, but this will take time to figure out.

We have to start somewhere, but holding a clipboard in todays model boating is simply a "joke" when we have technology at our fingertips.

All we need is the inspiration to do better, to find better ways, rather than just do what we have done ineffectively for decades.

If the pine wood derby can do it, why cant we?

Those are "toys".

 

[Don Ferrette]

You said cost was not a factor, now you agree it is and you still need people to do the extra work which has ALWAYS been a problem. The "status quo" is not driving boaters away, not being able to sit on their azzes in the living room holding on to a controller is what's driving a stake through the heart of this hobby (and many others that require outdoor physical activity). I'll be just fine calling starts with my joke of a clipboard, I'll give that stupid comment the attention it deserves. And lastly- if you are not collecting a paycheck doing this they are still TOYS. Expensive yes but in the end it's still a TOY that you PLAY with to have FUN........

 

[Shark]

You said cost was not a factor, now you agree it is and you still need people to do the extra work which has ALWAYS been a problem. The "status quo" is not driving boaters away, not being able to sit on their azzes in the living room holding on to a controller is what's driving a stake through the heart of this hobby (and many others that require outdoor physical activity). I'll be just fine calling starts with my joke of a clipboard, I'll give that stupid comment the attention it deserves. And lastly- if you are not collecting a paycheck doing this they are still TOYS. Expensive yes but in the end it's still a TOY that you PLAY with to have FUN........

Living in the past going into the future is a great example of not having any "vision". Excuses are always fun to read, but contributions make for better reading. FUN is an objective term, and your version of FUN and Mine clearly have their differences.

I prefer to call what we do, RACING.

Racing is inherently complex and requires complex thoughts. While I do not race in your area, I do race in an area where innovation and the future of model boating has always come from.

Before this even started we were WAM ( Western Associated Modeliers), when we created this organization we call NAMBA, it too was met with obstructionists who thought "they" had it all figured out.

In time, they all cycled out, and progress went forward. 50 years later, we now have the most sophiscated racing machines in model boating history.

If we listened to every guy who rejected change or failed to embrace the future, we would all be tethered to a pole going in circles like we did in 1968.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Don,
whether I've raced or not is irrelevant. What I have been doing is corner judging, several times a year. I've seen people yell about missed calls, wrong calls and calls they felt they didn't deserve. In the process, I've been actually hit, verbally abused, forced to defend calls that ALL the judges agreed on and now the question is WHY? You say we're playing with "toy boats" but you wouldn't know that by the way people react to a call. I won't corner judge again for those very reasons. If I'm not driving or spotting for someone, I'm not going to go up on that stand. When I went to my first race back in the late 80s, the boats were a lot slower than they are now. As I said, when you have several boats running through the first turn at 50+, you can't see anything except the inside boat and any boat that's not hidden by either a roostertail or fin spray. They further you get away from the buoy line, the harder it gets. Now, I have a question for you. Watch the start of this race. At approximately 2:45, during the first turn, a boat goes over.

Did he get cut off, spin out, blow over without help or did he run into another boat's rooster tail? Had there been a high angle viewpoint, we might know. As it was, there was no call due to lack of sight on the boat that went over or the boats on either side of it.
Just so you know, I was at that race, qualified for and ran in the second consolation heat. Unlike many others, I don't care if I win or not. To me, competing is what I'm there for. If I win, GREAT! If I don't, oh well, maybe next time. It's not going to make a difference as to whether I have a job, food on the table or a roof over my head. As you said, it's toy boats running around foam buoys so, win or lose, who really cares?
Just got to thinking, YOU CARE DON!!!!!
If you didn't care, you wouldn't have all 64 of your "accomplishments" listed in your signature, not that I care about them either.

 

[Don Ferrette]

You crack me up Rey, this is like listening to those knuckleheads "visions" on the Democratic Presidential debates, let's come up with complex and costly solutions to problems that really aren't all that. RACING...... uhh yeah. Anyone who knows and has raced against me can tell you that you best bring your A game when you're on the water with me. In a couple weeks many of us will be in Charleston for 3 days of some serious racing, one of the biggest races out there anywhere (335 boats 95 drivers, typical year). I'll be balls to wall every time my stuff hits the water but let's bring in a little dose of reality. Unfortunately I'll only be running 3 classes this year there over 4 rounds, so that's 12 heats (13 if I make the twin shoot out final again) total. Figuring an average 5 minutes total time per heat that's ONE HOUR out of THREE DAYS (plus open water day). What about the rest of that time? I'll spend that hanging out and cutting up having FUN with all the friends I've made in this hobby that sadly I often only get to see once or twice a year. All my district & national championships, the many speed records, all of that was also done having FUN. When this is no longer FUN for me that's when I'll walk away from it.

"Racing is inherently complex and requires complex thoughts. While I do not race in your area, I do race in an area where innovation and the future of model boating has always come from."

LMAO!! Rather than factually address the points made switch to a better than thou condescending tone, no surprise from a SoCal liberal. I'm done with this, hope you enjoy your clean start window, cameras, drones and whatever other goofy stuff you can further overload race organizers with. Me? I'll just continue racing hard and having FUN laughing it up with all the great people I've met over the years...........

 

[Shark]

D

You crack me up Rey, this is like listening to those knuckleheads "visions" on the Democratic Presidential debates, let's come up with complex and costly solutions to problems that really aren't all that. RACING...... uhh yeah. Anyone who knows and has raced against me can tell you that you best bring your A game when you're on the water with me. In a couple weeks many of us will be in Charleston for 3 days of some serious racing, one of the biggest races out there anywhere (335 boats 95 drivers, typical year). I'll be balls to wall every time my stuff hits the water but let's bring in a little dose of reality. Unfortunately I'll only be running 3 classes this year there over 4 rounds, so that's 12 heats (13 if I make the twin shoot out final again) total. Figuring an average 5 minutes total time per heat that's ONE HOUR out of THREE DAYS (plus open water day). What about the rest of that time? I'll spend that hanging out and cutting up having FUN with all the friends I've made in this hobby that sadly I often only get to see once or twice a year. All my district & national championships, the many speed records, all of that was also done having FUN. When this is no longer FUN for me that's when I'll walk away from it.

"Racing is inherently complex and requires complex thoughts. While I do not race in your area, I do race in an area where innovation and the future of model boating has always come from."

LMAO!! Rather than factually address the points made switch to a better than thou condescending tone, no surprise from a SoCal liberal. I'm done with this, hope you enjoy your clean start window, cameras, drones and whatever other goofy stuff you can further overload race organizers with. Me? I'll just continue racing hard and having FUN laughing it up with all the great people I've met over the years...........

Don, I see you would rather go down a rabbit hole, then contribute to the hobby. This I can understand, as I see it all the time. 5 Decades of racing under my belt and I have seen and heard it ALL.

Ok, try to make this political, that just demonstrates your foolishness because you dont have a serious argument to make. I wont bother to get into a "dickcheck" with you, as my records and championships stand for themselves.

As I indicated, FUN is a subjective term, and everyone has a different opinion on how to gauge FUN.

If you make a BAD Start Call, how much FUN is that for the guy who has to eat your mistake? His/her investment, time, effort and energy weighed against your mistake. That doesnt equal FUN.

Change isnt for everybody, there will always be those that believe they have it figured out.

Change belongs to the future competitor, the ones on the outside looking in. Collectively, we need to enhance the RACING experience in model boating in order to grow this hobby.

RC CARS use cameras and 21st century computer technology to enhance their racing experiences, and we are stuck with guys who believe obscuring half their vision with a clipboard is the best option for 21st century racing.

While the object of any hobby is to enjoy the competition, socialize with others who enjoy or share the same passion for the modeling experience, one key contribution we all have to make is to broaden the horizons for new boaters who look for leadership from those who have spent years in the hobby.

I understand where you are coming from.

Pine Wood Derby must be a more advanced racing environment than ours.

 

[Shannon Muth]

I rarely agree with Rey's "thinking outside of the box" but this concept worked quite well. A few electronic tweaks and it will become near perfect. I think large races with multiple CDs calling heats and classes is where it will shine. We all race in a district where most CDs will call a start differently.

 

[Shark]

I rarely agree with Rey's "thinking outside of the box" but this concept worked quite well. A few electronic tweaks and it will become near perfect. I think large races with multiple CDs calling heats and classes is where it will shine. We all race in a district where most CDs will call a start differently.

Shannon, as you know and pointed out, there is a difference between CD's in judgement when it comes to starts... If we can find a way to make "consistent" calls at each race, then we can eliminate disruptions between heats.

Our "window" is a great starting place and who knows how it evolves moving forward..!

Here is an example of a start where without a defined LINE to enhance the optics of viewing a start, would have been called a JUMP 10 out of 10 times.... The GX2 rigger on the outside is coming full tilt, while two other riggers are crawling in lanes 1 and 2..

LINEAR vision is the key to making a good call, and a persons eye's cannot maintain two individual FOCAL points at the same time. So, looking at the start in a LINEAR view, with a defined LINE makes this call easier...

I am sure at first view, someone would have called this start a JUMP.... But listen to the initiation of the horn and the boat on the outside lane. People watching on the sidelines would lose their minds seeing this boat so far past the line and almost into turn one before the HORN stops blaring.... and they would bet money it was a jump, but the camera doesnt LIE... We are talking micro seconds of judgement that has to be made with this call..

I called it good...cause this driver timed it perfectly..! This view straight off the "Clean Start Window" camera.

 

[JimZaremski]

Guys,

we’re grown men playing with toy boats competing for bowling trophies. We’re supposed to be doing this for “fun.” The more and more you try to make this stuff SRS BSNS the less fun it becomes as people get more willing to knock over their own grandmothers to win a piece of wood with a label on it.

as for cameras and laptops and so on, come on. I don’t know about others but clubs I’m familiar with ain’t exactly flush with cash and I’m not willing to use my personal hardware. The “start window” posted by the OP is a good idea if it works for your setup. But we’ve been letting CDs make the calls for decades, and it’s worked for decades. Let’s not drag this hobby down the same path as football and baseball with endless reviews of everything. The stakes just aren’t that high.

 

[Grimracer]

and Jim nails the post... (good one Jim)

Grim

 

[Brad Christy]

Guys,

I have to agree with Rey. Anything that takes the guesswork out of it makes for a smoother operation, and thus more fun for everybody. Period. Resolving a start or corner call with a one second review of a pic or a three second review of a video, with ZERO hard feelings is a Hell of a lot better than "The CD's always right" and at least one racer walking away pissed off.

While the cost is an issue, it's really not. I bought a used laptop a while back for drip-feeding large programs to an older CNC mill for $100. Cheap, knock-off GoPros are a dime a dozen, and work plenty well for our needs. Sure, a club COULD drop a couple grand installing something like this, but they for sure wouldn't have to.

The argument against this seems like refusing to lift the anchor that's crippling headway because its heavy, so we just keep dragging it because we've always dragged it. Seriously.....? Seriously.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Jim, while I see your point, cost is an issue, I also see where this "sport" is headed. We need to do something to take bias and line of site out of the calls process. After my last time at a race, I refuse to be on the stand as an official due to the abusiveness of some racers. I've actually been hit, that's right, HIT!!! due to someone not liking a non-call. Someone else actually told me to get off the stand when I was corner judging because he didn't like the call the CD and I both made. This kind of stuff needs to be removed from the sport and if we keep doing what we've been doing with boats that are more than 50% faster than when I got into this hobby, it's only going to get worse and, unfortunately, the sport will die as people get fed up and leave

 

[henry velasco]

Can not go without saying
Rey Garcia showed this OLD DOG new tricks
The start window made a honest driver out of me
I am always good for at lest 4 jump starts
Good job Rey --- no GREAT job

Henry

 

[JimZaremski]

Jim, while I see your point, cost is an issue, I also see where this "sport" is headed. We need to do something to take bias and line of site out of the calls process. After my last time at a race, I refuse to be on the stand as an official due to the abusiveness of some racers. I've actually been hit, that's right, HIT!!! due to someone not liking a non-call. Someone else actually told me to get off the stand when I was corner judging because he didn't like the call the CD and I both made. This kind of stuff needs to be removed from the sport

per IMPBA Code of Conduct, as the CD you have the authority to DQ and remove those people from the race. And if anyone was to take a swing at me over a call, I'd be more than happy to call the nice people with badges to come remove them.

you're trying to find a technical solution to a people problem. Get rid of the problem people.

B. Conduct

If, during an event sponsored by IMPBA, it is determined by the member in charge of said event that a contestant’s conduct falls below the acceptable standards as set forth in these rules, that contestant is subject to immediate disqualification from the event and is further subject to a suspension of all racing privileges for a period of 30 days, or more, to include a lifetime suspension. The Director of the event is required to immediately inform the IMPBA President in writing of the action taken. The IMPBA reserves the right to deny membership to any individual that has, at any time, demonstrated unsafe boating practices, been suspended, or banned from another boating organization for any amount of time, or for any reason.

 

[Tommy Lee]

Wow-drones,cameras, laptops,$$$$$$. If this is what it takes these days to race model boats and have fun, I sure am glad my racing days are over.