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AMEN BROTHER. Its a call. Make it. I will stand by it. Even it is wrong. Its still right. All the bitching means nothing. They are not standing in the CD position with the mic. I use the mic cord to create a line. If you nose is over the cord line at the busser, you have not started. Its that simple. Make the call and move on.
 
Mike,

Overall, I agree. The CD's call is the final word. But....

There are those who will always contest the CD's call, and will carry their resentment throughout the event. A picture is worth a thousand words, is proof positive the CD made the right call, and SHOULD eliminate any resentment. I'd say that 99% of the time, the pic will be useless. But it also takes zero time to record, and is easily accessible for "those" times.

I also don't think it takes any time at all for the CD to glance down at a laptop to have a look if there's any question in his/her mind. Most times, there is no need. But, if it's close.....

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC
 
As long as I have been doing this we ALL understand the risk as a CD that we are going to pee some folks off.. I for one accept this risk for the sake of the other racers. If I pee off one racer because of a start line call.. so be it.. as a CD you dont want to do that BUT.. it does happen and comes with the job.

Dont care about resentment at an event. As a CD you cant....If it gets that bad it will be self regulating.

I have CD'd part of a race.. a small race and a HUGE race.. its all the same.. Make the call best you can and let her eat.

Grim
 
For a stretch of about 4 seasons, the TCMBC pond was weed free, the membership numbers soared, and we regularly had out of town racers attending the 6 races we were able to hold a season. It always seemed to be the same two or 3 racers who would argue ANY call that didn’t go their way. Whether I was on the stand, cd’ing the heat or not I would get confronted at least once during a race because I was an officer in the club, I’m a CD, and also a district director. They got the same response from me every time. Read your rule book. The call the cd makes is final... if you don’t like it you can go home.
 
Put the CD up in a tree stand,,pull the ladder up. Jeez!. I guess eventually he has to come down. I like the sight glass with lines and camera. So long as everyone signed-to-race agrees on that start line and already has prior knowledge that it will be in place. No hand holding later on in the day.
 
Keith,

I agree. The start window and camera simply ends the discussion and removes any grounds anybody has to argue. In most cases, I think you'd get acknowledgement from the begrudged racer, rather than embitterment. And it requires all but zero time on the part of the CD to utilize. That's a win-win, if you ask me.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC
 
Good conversation wrapped up around this idea.. I keep thinking.. as a driver.. I need to know as soon as possible if or if not I am over. This has a large impact on how I approach lap one turn one. If I hear.. you were over and upon review I WAS NOT.. and adjusted my drive because of this..... even for a split second.... hum.... would not sit well with me...

Or.. if they called good start and the guy in front of me was later deemed OVER... and I adjusted my drive.. made bad decisions and dumped the boat..... again.. would not sit well with me...

If I felt I could review my start, and the others around me in at the start... . I would do it EVERY heat race.

I ACCEPT the HUMAN aspect of RC boat racing.. like corner judging and start calling.. it goes along with both good and bad driving decisions I make.. LOL

Grim
 
The only part of this "video" is when does this feedback come down to the racers? I mean the CD now yells out good start or who was over or something like what is the 1st legal boat at the start. If AFTER the race they determine the call was wrong what happens next? DQ, penalty, re run the race... these are not good solutions. I say the CD has the ball and we run with their call at the start 100%, right or wrong that gives all the same conditions at the called start. Just my 2 cents worth...
 
Paul,

Instantly. If there is any doubt or possibility of a boat that is "over", the start caller takes a one second glance down at the laptop, where the pic is already displayed for review. One more second later, as boats are approaching turn ONE, if needed, "over" boats are called over, and any adjustments by the drivers can be made accordingly. Any racer called over should take the call at face value (with our without this method), and, at the very least, put in the extra lap, just to avoid a DNF. Any proof review can be done once the roostertails have settled. It won't take long before proof reviews are hardly needed, as drivers will realize that calls are made as accurately as possible.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC
 
you like math brad.. do the math on a 90 boat.. if it take the CD one second to make the first call and two seconds (for the sake of argument twice as long as you suggested) to make the picture call and the boat is making XX second laps.. how much time does the driver have to make adjustments to turn one... he has 135 feet to the turn...

CD says.....

" the first two boats are over"...
Then he/she looks at the picture
Then make the adjusted call
"only one boat was over and it was the yellow one"

I am on the back stretch making a bid to secure the race. heck.. I would be there with my 20 tunnel by then..LOL

I fully understand the idea.. and truth is it has merit.. BUT.. I am not sure its practical thats all..

Would be fun to give it a try...

Grim
 
Look at how the big boats call it. If the start/finish tower officials think a boat's over and want to double check, they call "Start is under review". That leaves it up to the drivers to determine if they want to push a boat that's ahead of theirs or back off. The CD at an R/C race could call "REVIEW" so everyone knows what's up. That would give the CD a few seconds to check the screen and make the proper call. I know things happen fast with boats doing in excess of 40MPH(that's referring to 20 sized boats BTW), but it would give everyone the heads up to a possible running order change and let the drivers react in a way they think is appropriate.
 
Mike,

I get that. But, I think you're over estimating the time it will take for the pic to be available for review and for the CD to review it. A clean, clear pic of the start line and a couple boats will show, instantly, if any of them are over. I think we'll find that most times a call will be made QUICKER by this method than with the CD subconsciously trying to process, from memory, if any boats were over and which one. What we'll get is an instant "Blue boat is over!" by the time the blue boat reaches buoy one. He/she doesn't even have to look up from the laptop to get the words out.

Remember, this is only going to come into play with those "nose over the line" instances. If a boat is halfway to buoy one, this method will be unnecessary, and the CD won't even glance down at the laptop.

In the event of a possible need to check the pic, the CD says NOTHING until he/she has checked the pic. Even if it takes until drivers are on the back stretch, that's fine, as they are all still driving it like the stole it at that point. The ones up front ( who are going to be the ones over, if any), aren't letting up, and the ones in back are trying to catch them. Everybody still has a cramp in their throttle finger.

I've been on both sides of this coin. I've been called over when I "knew" I wasn't, and I've been the second boat, "knew" I was clean and "knew" the lead boat was over. The idea is for the host club to put on a clean, fair race, and, most importantly, for us all to have fun. A "bad" call sticks with you throughout the day, and reduces the fun factor. All drivers will know, up front, that the photo start will be in place, and the call will be instant. Most drivers will come to accept the call on faith, even in the heat of the moment. My guess is that most drivers will come to expect the call they KNOW is coming any time there is a close start, and will have already made any adjustments they feel are in order. As we've said, the CD's word is law. But in the event of a subconscious (and most likely biased) presumption of "innocence", a pic after the heat is over will eliminate all question, AND the potentially lost fun factor.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine And Precision LLC
 
Mark makes a good point as our model rules have tried to mirror full size when applicable. I ran full sized OPC from 1977-1992 so I just reviewed the current APBA scorers handbook to get up to date.
We used to run two 5 lap heats and if you swapped 1st and 2nds the tie was broken by time, All boats and laps recorded. If you jumped the start you had a DNS no points and found out after the heat and the scorers were informed in the first couple laps not needing to keep time on that boat. In the drivers seat before radio communication you drove it like you stole it and found out you were DQed after the heat, If bodies were available on the stand you might see a black flag. ***Apply this to our model boat starts and it WOULD clean up the start line. Then a camera would be a real benefit.*** Since we allow a jump to actually be a mill lap 99/100th down, you could run the full 6 to be scored. The "over" boats then would have ample time for judges to inform. Nice to know early to adjust driving but better than just a DQ.
Sidebar in rereading the scoring rules I found out where the bouy strike one lap penalty came into play. It was designed for marathon or multi lap races 20 plus laps. Bear in mind when the lead boat finishes all other legal boats are allowed to complete the lap they are on. If your two down your scored adead of 3 laps down. We could apply that and not watch a limp boat run 2 minute laps trying to finish 6, or finish 2 penalty laps. (NAMBA)
Mic
 
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Mark makes a good point as our model rules have tried to mirror full size when applicable. I ran full sized OPC from 1977-1992 so I just reviewed the current APBA scorers handbook to get up to date.
We used to run two 5 lap heats and if you swapped 1st and 2nds the tie was broken by time, All boats and laps recorded. If you jumped the start you had a DNS no points and found out after the heat and the scorers were informed in the first couple laps not needing to keep time on that boat. In the drivers seat before radio communication you drove it like you stole it and found out you were DQed after the heat, If bodies were available on the stand you might see a black flag. ***Apply this to our model boat starts and it WOULD clean up the start line. Then a camera would be a real benefit.*** Since we allow a jump to actually be a mill lap 99/100th down, you could run the full 6 to be scored. The "over" boats then would have ample time for judges to inform. Nice to know early to adjust driving but better than just a DQ.
Sidebar in rereading the scoring rules I found out where the bouy strike one lap penalty came into play. It was designed for marathon or multi lap races 20 plus laps. Bear in mind when the lead boat finishes all other legal boats are allowed to complete the lap they are on. If your two down your scored adead of 3 laps down. We could apply that and not watch a limp boat run 2 minute laps trying to finish 6, or finish 2 penalty laps. (NAMBA)
Mic


Read Section 18, Page 3, G.4 ---You can call off all the remaining boats off the course after the first place boat finishes. Nobody really does that but it is in the rule book.
 
Hey Brad I see this path you spell out and maybe that will work out, I do think it is WAY too much to expect the CD to have to look at some crappy screen in the sun, determine what boat (or boats) are over, or maybe what is the 1st legal boat would be easier. At any rate they have a great deal going on in a very short time span, and will make mistakes, with the laptop will this ALWAYS make the task better? There are always weak points in any system we come up with, and in the end human judgement will be the final word. Just saying...
 
Its all about how many people are on the stand more infractions are made coming to the start than at the start. There is a minimum number of judges needed for a heat and each should know there job. At the last Nitro Nats I held we had 5 on the stand at all times.One or 2 or even 3 at a big event dont cut it cause unless you an ass and keep telling everyone keep focused on the job people will talk and miss calls. CD makes the call on the start and judges chime in nothing wrong with the human factor we are racing for trophies not $$$$
 
Paul,

I can't remember the last race I attended where the judging stand was in the sun. Just sayin'

Maybe we are using the wrong terminology. When we refer to the CD glancing at the laptop, we should be referring to a start judge who the CD relies on to make these calls. If the CD needs to refer to the image for a final say on a disputed call, that would obviously happen after the heat is over.

All of this would be covered in the drivers meeting. All drivers would be made fully aware that a vision system is in place to ensure maximum consistency, accuracy and fairness, that the call at the start is law, and that they should drive according to the call at the start. If they choose to go with their own call, and end up with a DNF or whatever, that's on them.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC
 
In our hobby, one of the major problems is trying to race 21st century model boats with 19th century rules and techniques.

There are many metrics that really need changing, from bouy construction, composition and design to the starting of a race. There are tons of 21st century ideas that can be tried or tested that could improve how races are conducted and yet, we see that "some" want to stay in the 19th century.

Today, we have drones that transmit live imaging to laptops, and if designed properly and the applications for them are put to good use, many racing "issues" or "arguments" could be resolved quickly.

We continue to race under rules written in the early 70's while being in 2019, and thats 48 years ago, I know, I was there when these "rules" were written.

One specific rule: "..all calls have to be made within one lap".... is just an example of a rule that should no longer be applied in 2019. Back in 1971, when boats were going 35 mph, this rule could effectively be possible, but today, with some boats covering that one lap in 9 seconds, this rule is outdated and begs for change.

Same with the "starting line" and the "calls" that derive out of it.

I have read such things as "holding the mic cord" and using that as a starting line...or lets just make arbitrary good or bad calls and go with it, without understanding that these are not 21st century ideas.

FAIRNESS and EQUALITY should be the only metric we seek as CD's when running a race. We have all seen horrible start calls, and we all have seen the arguments that come out of those calls. We have seen the boating "Royalty" get a pass on the starts while others are micro managed.

Lets be clear, NOBODY can judge a starting line without a "STARTING LINE". A mic cord is crooked and holding it straight up doesnt provide the proper "OPTICS" to cover linear vision. While it is true, that bad calls and good calls are going to be made, however, in the 21st century, we have ways to improve the ways starts are called, and now with the benefit of Phone Cameras, we can memorialize ALL starts with a replay feature and this ALONE, keeps the drivers honest as they approach the starting line, and moreover, it keeps the CD honest and eliminates "ROYALTY" calls.

Now, presently there is no rule for the use of camera's, this is understood by all, but in the future, with an accurate memorial of a starting line with an actual straight line in the lens, we can resolve "appeals" to a jump start or an "appeal" to a non called jump start by a well constructed rule. This rule could allow for a review after the completion of a heat, much like review in the NFL which could effect the outcome of a race in dispute. The finished positions could easily be "unwound" to reflect an overturn of an appeal. We have the ability to use 21st century technology in model boat racing, and this is something as competitors we should all embrace.

With my "CLEAN START WINDOW", calls are SOLID, ACCURATE and in its first live race test, without disputes. Many drivers after a heat, asked for a review, it took less than 30 seconds to view the recording and discuss. Once the process was actually experienced by our competitors, the use of the "window" was accepted and calls were not challenged for the remainder of the weekend.

This should be OUR goal, provide a Fair and Equal start for everyone.

BAD Calls are bad calls, and these are UNFAIR to all competitors. Eliminating or reducing "bad calls" is something that the 21st century has a solution to.

A CD has to focus on too many metrics as boats approach the starting line, and holding a mic cord or clipboard in front of a face "limits" the perimeters of vision to make good honest calls. Having a full view of the water and the approaching of boats through the "clean start window" provides full linear vision of the start.

Many drivers come to the line "hot" at full speed on the outside versus the crawlers inching up in lanes 1 or 2, and without full linear vision, there is NO WAY the CD can effectively make this call, so the outside boat generally gets call for a jump.

I have some great video of such starts, but I cant post the videos here yet.

With the Naked eye, there is no way to determine a line. There is no way to determine width of that imaginary line or where it lays across the water. Yes, we have been doing that for decades, but thats just an outdated process.

We all should embrace competitive change that equalizes the playing field for all boaters. Competition demands change and change requires competition.

Fairness and Equality.

The "Clean Start Window" is just a start to that change in 21st Model Boating.
 
While I do agree, calling starts is an issue, I think we have an even bigger issue to deal with and that's the corners. When you have several boats doing 50+, it's almost impossible to have an accurate call in terms of lane violations and, in some cases, buoy cuts. For example, you have two white boats in close proximity, one cuts a buoy. Can you tell, within a second or two, which boat it was, especially if they have very similar graphics? We may need to have some sort of high level camera platform just for this kind of situation as well. Then again, how do you use that high level camera? Is it used as a review only(like in the NFL) or is it used to make the calls, meaning you would need someone watching a monitor for the entire heat?
 

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