5 boat minimum to make a class

Intlwaters

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Bill Gibson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
3,477
WOW! All this drama for the sake of a hobby???? What a total break down in communication. Time for some serious positive debate and discussion at the table and a complete and total effort made to make ALL MEMBERS aware of just what is going on. What an embarrassment. EVERY effort should be made to see that ALL types of model boats have the opportunity to go compete at a sanctioned race...regardless of what powerplant they use.
Gas class boat racing is healthy and thriving.......GOOD FOR THEM! I mean that sincerely! Then work on the types/classes of race boats that have low turnouts/ or dying! FE and Nitro are hurting in numbers so work on it. Combine them by class if needed and come up with one or 2 day races just for them....again Gas is doing just fine! They dont need the help! We have alot of intelligent people in this hobby with great abilities to work this issue out.
I cant believe that there would be out and out discrimination of a race boat based on what powers it. RIDICULOUS!
 

Jerry_Crowther

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
326
When “Mama Bear” comes out, from GROWN ADULTS picking on my then 10 year old, you know it’s gotten bad. I am Sara Crowther, Jerry’s wife and Gavin’s mom. Our initial concern, brought to Eric’s attention at a Broward race, was that we would like for Gavin to be able to run in the powder puff class. This class is to give new to racing women drivers the opportunity to practice without running in heats with experienced drivers and more boats. We came with solutions – make this a novice class so gender had nothing to do with it and it would be only about gaining experience. We were told this was only for women and they would not allow for Gavin to run. At a later time, Kelly did tell my 10 year old son that he wouldn’t be allowed even if it was changed because he was too good. As an adult, I can handle that. How do you think a 10 year old felt about that? When Jerry and I continued to talk to Eric he said, “Well obviously, we already talked about that. I would never in a million years make that an intended consequence of anything that I do.” He went on to say that he is “very open minded and willing to listen.” Well, our concerns fell on deaf ears. We went right to the source – the district director – and were not given the time of day.

This leads to my second concern. How were we supposed to know that our concern, and solution, was brought to the board of directors? There is never an agenda posted, the “minutes” are minimal (and honestly, if you don’t know what they SHOULD be talking about, pretty much worthless), and there is not an opportunity to discuss with voting members our thoughts on matters. The Facebook group is controlled by Eric and Kelly. In fact, when I finally got tired of waiting for any sort of response, I wrote a post on my concerns. At what point do I have to continue to be nice? I’m a mom, my child is getting the crap end of a stick, and I’m tired of people not giving any serious thought to a simple problem with a simple solution. I tried to post this on the district 3 FB page:

The Dali Lama once said, "A lack of transparency results in distrust and a deep sense of insecurity."

The current hand-picked leadership team of district 3 is leaving a lot to be desired. The secrecy and lack of real information to the paying members in this district is creating a divided culture without any real thought given to those that just want to race boats fairly.

There are a few glaring concerns:
  1. Where is the information/rules/bylaws for District 3 posted? The website has disappeared. How are members supposed to know rules if they are not available?
  2. Directors: There are directors for Electric and Gas but not Nitro - Why? There is a large class of racers that are not being represented on the board. We have a new member director, but how many new members are there? I'm a new member and never once got anything from that director.
  3. Directors: Where is there a list of responsibilities for each director?
  4. Voting: As everyone pays yearly to be a member of NAMBA, there is a lack of voices being heard from its members. Technically, a quorum should be met in order to make any decisions. This means that 51% of the MEMBERS must vote in order for motion to pass. Facebook (since this is the main information source) has a poll feature that would allow for public voting.
  5. Board Members: How are they picked? How does one say if they would like to be chosen? Is there a voting process to put someone in place?
  6. Board Meetings: Agendas should be posted BEFORE the board meetings take place. All members should know what the board is discussing so they can offer input to their voting directors.
  7. Board Meetings: Should be public. We have all adapted to using Zoom and Teams. It wouldn't be hard to allow for members to listen to the meetings.
  8. Races: What's with the open classes? These are just duplicate classes to let people run their same boats more times in more classes.
  9. Races: Powder Puff vs. Novice. Who has made the decision to only allow a powder puff class and not a novice class? Why are women allowed to run in the powder puff class and then run the same boat in a class with men? And why are novice racers or young racers not allowed the same privilege? Running with 5 boats versus 30 is a giant difference. This was brought up to the board at the Broward Race, where there was ONE novice class. Who knows if it was ever discussed again? There are no agendas, no real minutes, and no public meetings.
As you can probably guess, my post was NOT approved. In fact, some of my concerns were suddenly “fixed” and up on the district 3 page – however, no mention of my post. So I posted it as a reply to someone’s comment. Why should I not be allowed to post my concerns for all to see? I went directly to the source and was ignored completely. And then, magically, a whole bunch of pictures were posted to hide my comment. Ironically, my picture post of my boys running boats with their dad, was not approved until 4 days later. And even now, I am blocked on some posts that my husband can still see. (see attachment)

0DD34070-D520-44CF-A69A-8E4437DDC1A8.jpeg

I now have taken my concern over Eric’s head, since it was not being properly handled. I have spoken with the current NAMBA president and a former one. I was informed that Eric wanted to use the basic NAMBA rules. However, this isn’t the case. NAMBA rules state that three boats make a class. Not in D3. It’s 5, UNLESS you are in the powder puff class, which is only 3. I am curious to know where the D3 rules are posted. Let me tell you, they are NOT on the D3 FB page. If this is where the majority of their info is being posted, why no rules?

This leads to being open and honest with ALL the members in your district. Why the secrecy? What are you trying to hide? Because, honestly, they are just miniature boats.
 

Julio Almazan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
123
Hi:
You know, as I do, that not always, when 5 boats start, 5 boats finish. Usually, there are problems with one or two of those boats and the test ends with two or three boats just adding laps.
The clubs and institutions that organize these events usually cost a good amount of money to organize, coordinate and direct them... and sometimes, the public would appreciate more consideration and tests with a minimum number of pilots than the public. make it enjoyable and interesting to watch, because in them THERE ARE FIGHTS, DISPUTES... and not one or two guys running around alone and without any grace.
I consider that a minimum of five pilots would be fair... even when it goes against my interests as a pilot. There are categories that, by themselves, must limit the inscriptions due to the number of pilots... and others, which have been languishing over time and very few compete in it. I think that would be the interesting thing to promote: better categories, more accessibility to them and not fewer drivers in starting order.
I am of the idea of LESS categories, with MORE riders in each of them... and not the other way around.
Sure, that's my very humble opinion...
 

Eric Canto

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
1,246
When “Mama Bear” comes out, from GROWN ADULTS picking on my then 10 year old, you know it’s gotten bad. I am Sara Crowther, Jerry’s wife and Gavin’s mom. Our initial concern, brought to Eric’s attention at a Broward race, was that we would like for Gavin to be able to run in the powder puff class. This class is to give new to racing women drivers the opportunity to practice without running in heats with experienced drivers and more boats. We came with solutions – make this a novice class so gender had nothing to do with it and it would be only about gaining experience. We were told this was only for women and they would not allow for Gavin to run. At a later time, Kelly did tell my 10 year old son that he wouldn’t be allowed even if it was changed because he was too good. As an adult, I can handle that. How do you think a 10 year old felt about that? When Jerry and I continued to talk to Eric he said, “Well obviously, we already talked about that. I would never in a million years make that an intended consequence of anything that I do.” He went on to say that he is “very open minded and willing to listen.” Well, our concerns fell on deaf ears. We went right to the source – the district director – and were not given the time of day.

This leads to my second concern. How were we supposed to know that our concern, and solution, was brought to the board of directors? There is never an agenda posted, the “minutes” are minimal (and honestly, if you don’t know what they SHOULD be talking about, pretty much worthless), and there is not an opportunity to discuss with voting members our thoughts on matters. The Facebook group is controlled by Eric and Kelly. In fact, when I finally got tired of waiting for any sort of response, I wrote a post on my concerns. At what point do I have to continue to be nice? I’m a mom, my child is getting the crap end of a stick, and I’m tired of people not giving any serious thought to a simple problem with a simple solution. I tried to post this on the district 3 FB page:

The Dali Lama once said, "A lack of transparency results in distrust and a deep sense of insecurity."

The current hand-picked leadership team of district 3 is leaving a lot to be desired. The secrecy and lack of real information to the paying members in this district is creating a divided culture without any real thought given to those that just want to race boats fairly.

There are a few glaring concerns:
  1. Where is the information/rules/bylaws for District 3 posted? The website has disappeared. How are members supposed to know rules if they are not available?
  2. Directors: There are directors for Electric and Gas but not Nitro - Why? There is a large class of racers that are not being represented on the board. We have a new member director, but how many new members are there? I'm a new member and never once got anything from that director.
  3. Directors: Where is there a list of responsibilities for each director?
  4. Voting: As everyone pays yearly to be a member of NAMBA, there is a lack of voices being heard from its members. Technically, a quorum should be met in order to make any decisions. This means that 51% of the MEMBERS must vote in order for motion to pass. Facebook (since this is the main information source) has a poll feature that would allow for public voting.
  5. Board Members: How are they picked? How does one say if they would like to be chosen? Is there a voting process to put someone in place?
  6. Board Meetings: Agendas should be posted BEFORE the board meetings take place. All members should know what the board is discussing so they can offer input to their voting directors.
  7. Board Meetings: Should be public. We have all adapted to using Zoom and Teams. It wouldn't be hard to allow for members to listen to the meetings.
  8. Races: What's with the open classes? These are just duplicate classes to let people run their same boats more times in more classes.
  9. Races: Powder Puff vs. Novice. Who has made the decision to only allow a powder puff class and not a novice class? Why are women allowed to run in the powder puff class and then run the same boat in a class with men? And why are novice racers or young racers not allowed the same privilege? Running with 5 boats versus 30 is a giant difference. This was brought up to the board at the Broward Race, where there was ONE novice class. Who knows if it was ever discussed again? There are no agendas, no real minutes, and no public meetings.
As you can probably guess, my post was NOT approved. In fact, some of my concerns were suddenly “fixed” and up on the district 3 page – however, no mention of my post. So I posted it as a reply to someone’s comment. Why should I not be allowed to post my concerns for all to see? I went directly to the source and was ignored completely. And then, magically, a whole bunch of pictures were posted to hide my comment. Ironically, my picture post of my boys running boats with their dad, was not approved until 4 days later. And even now, I am blocked on some posts that my husband can still see. (see attachment)

View attachment 309197

I now have taken my concern over Eric’s head, since it was not being properly handled. I have spoken with the current NAMBA president and a former one. I was informed that Eric wanted to use the basic NAMBA rules. However, this isn’t the case. NAMBA rules state that three boats make a class. Not in D3. It’s 5, UNLESS you are in the powder puff class, which is only 3. I am curious to know where the D3 rules are posted. Let me tell you, they are NOT on the D3 FB page. If this is where the majority of their info is being posted, why no rules?

This leads to being open and honest with ALL the members in your district. Why the secrecy? What are you trying to hide? Because, honestly, they are just miniature boats.
 
Last edited:

Greg Wannamaker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
537
I definitely do not have a dog in this fight but do know this to be true, it is possible to have completely opposing views on a topic and have candid and respectful discussion about it and in such away that everyone’s integrity and wellbeing is preserved. I have experienced this to be absolutely true after having been engaged in a 40+ years long career that asked exactly this of me on a daily basis.

Each of you are passionate about your position and a seemingly prerequisite is that boaters are equally passionate about the health of the hobby. This often is the starting point of resolution, respectfully acknowledge that passion, arrive at common agreement that something different is required and then step into the discussion knowing that there will be comprise required on both sides of the issue. The answers and solutions are never fully one way or the other, they are almost always in the middle.

So, respectfully take up the challenge and make your corner of the world a better place, that kind of peace is waiting for all of you.

Wish I was personally present to assist but have confidence in each of you.

Respectfully, Greg
 

Jerry_Crowther

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
326
Sara Crowther this is Kelly Canto. Are you out of your mind? Do you truly believe that GROWN adults are out to attack your son? You stated, "Kelly did tell my 10-year-old son that he wouldn’t be allowed even if it was changed because he was too good." I NEVER had a conversation with your son about this. In fact, this weekend, on Friday I went out of my way to make sure Jerry knew there was food available that I cooked for everyone on open water, I made sure both of your boys received the raffle tickets they earned for helping out, on Sunday evening I made sure your sons got the popsicles I was handing out to everyone. Eric and I enjoyed your boys this weekend. Gavin even came to Eric Sunday evening to say goodbye and thanked him. I am tired of you attacking me personally and if you do not stop attacking my character, I will take measures to stop it.
Kelly - I have never said that you or Eric were outright rude or mean or anything disrespectful to my children. Ever. This weekend at the race, the boys had a great time interacting with everyone, including you and your husband. The races are for racing and not for controversy. However, the reference that you made that Gavin is too good to run in novice (at the Melbourne race after a mono heat), whether it was said in jest or not, is not something that should have been said to a 10 year old new to racing. And yes, I do feel like grown adults are out for Gavin, because why else wouldn't he be allowed to run in a powder puff or novice class?
 

Wasted wages

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,966
My thoughts are post in the race flyer 5 boat min for a class to "make"...
However many boats show up to race, adjust as needed.. combine classes etc.

I've been to races where they start out with
5 -6 boats, and by the 2nd or 3rd Round, people have dropped out.. wrecks, blown motors happen.

One race, third round, I was the last boat still in competition for that class... but I still launched, took the start, made one lap and brought it in.... because others bluffed and brought their boats to the start pits... but never threw them in,,,

had I not done that, I would not have gotten my points and ended up in third.
I would have been fine combining with another class, but never underestimate what other racers are thinking.

If there are only one or two boats that make the race for a certain class, then the option to cancel or combine classes should be left up to the drivers of that class and the CD.
 

HTV Boats

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
2,467
Let's hear some opinions on a 5 boat minimum to make a class. Are we that pompous and self righteous that classes that are struggling and need competitors , particularly young people that we will just not let them compete ? The only way to build back is to allow these classes to run with fewer boats . What is the difference whether 5 run or 3 run.? Same time or less to run the heat
Model Boat racing is a hobby
Let's try to build it back not hold it back . Let's hear your thoughts on this .
Getting back to the subject 5 Boats. The minimum was enacted to keep District3 races somewhat manageable along with a 175 boat race limit. Over the years I have seen races reduced to 3 heats as a fourth round could not happen due to not enough time. Also there is concern over D-3 high points so eliminating small classes seems to be a solution.
Other methods might be a 4 boat maximum entry per driver.
. Or instead of 6 boats in a heat go to 8. When you limit to 6, the seventh boat makes a 4-3 heat split 14 boats makes a 5-5-4 and so on. 8 boats makes the splits at 16 amd 24. it adds up and cutting even 5 heats a round can shorten the day. The downside is much more carnage and retrieve time.
No perfect solutions just compromises.

As for building back the hobby with new racers maybe look at what a new racer sees. You just have one or two boats and probably the cheaper or entry level. You show up to a D-3 race and see large trailers and canopies and may find a spot for your table somewhere in the outer banks. Everyone is friendly but it has to be pretty intimidating. The host club has a full plate just keeping the carnival running so little time is allotted for new people. The majority of D-3 clubs have more racers than they can handle so new blood only gets comments on forums like this then little changes.
As for 5 boats well 3 or 4 start and one drops you have 2-3 left and thats not much of a race
JMO Mic
 
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Tom Foley

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
6,550
Getting back to the subject 5 Boats. The minimum was enacted to keep District3 races somewhat manageable along with a 175 boat race limit. Over the years I have seen races reduced to 3 heats as a fourth round could not happen due to not enough time. Also there is concern over D-3 high points so eliminating small classes seems to be a solution.
Other methods might be a 4 boat maximum entry per driver.
. Or instead of 6 boats in a heat go to 8. When you limit to 6, the seventh boat makes a 4-3 heat split 14 boats makes a 5-5-4 and so on. 8 boats makes the splits at 16 amd 24. it adds up and cutting even 5 heats a round can shorten the day. The downside is much more carnage and retrieve time.
No perfect solutions just compromises.

As for building back the hobby with new racers maybe look at what a new racer sees. You just have one or two boats and probably the cheaper or entry level. You show up to a D-3 race and see large trailers and canopies and may find a spot for your table somewhere in the outer banks. Everyone is friendly but it has to be pretty intimidating. The host club has a full plate just keeping the carnival running so little time is allotted for new people. The majority of D-3 clubs have more racers than they can handle so new blood only gets comments on forums like this then little changes.
As for 5 boats well 3 or 4 start and one drops you have 2-3 left and thats not much of a race
JMO Mic
8 boat heats take more time than 2 - 4 boat heats due to wrecks and retrieve boat duties for pickup and bouys .
3 - 4 boat race is actually a better race with closer racing taking place imho . All racing of any kind even bicycles the pits are all trailers , just the way it is now . No perfect scenario no matter how you look at it . Seems this thread has run it's course . Back to welding lol ! Pic for attention . Thanks for all the replies .431120_3415555996427_1511477927_n.jpg
 

Grimracer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Messages
8,923
My View.

When it comes to sanctioned events it should be a 5 boat min (OR MORE).. EXCLUDING kids classes. In that case 1 2 3 or more. cool!.. let em run there boat.

What happens in the next few years a few more "cool classes we have to run" show up as a priority at your event? Do ya add em or drop others.. How many classes are to many? Have we reached that (my opinion is we have YEARS AGO!)

I see no harm in separating power types into there own events. (maybe even hull styles, or size........thinking) Let THOSE numbers speak for themselves. I think we need to stop trying to save power types damaging the the intent of the event.

The 21 Shootout was a VERY well attended event! The tunnel champs, very well attended.. and so on.

If I was a gas racer or FE as well as a nitro guy.. AWESOME.. I would have those events to look forward to as well.

I am really not a fan of hanging out on line until the event opens as my only chance to say off the filler list.

But.. to simplify.. 5 or more per class.. kids classes excluded.

Grimracer
 

Tom Foley

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
6,550
I'm all for this too...
I mean at some point, we need to think about others that may not get to race..
And now I'm running 8 to try and save 2 dying classes...... Again I ask what difference does it make 3 or 5 ? What difference does it really make to anyone , Points Race or Non Points race ? At this rate we need to be happy to see ANY Nitro boats show up . Why is 5 or 6 the magic number ? Expected No - Shows ?
 

Grimracer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Messages
8,923
Apposing view here.. why would anybody travel for a 3 boat class? Nitro or not? That's a lot of money for a win with an asterisk attached to it.

5 and you have a better chance of more finishing.. (more then 5 and the numbers go up) The race looser does not give a hoot how many boats he lost too.. BUT WIN THAT same race with 5 OR MORE boats and its a much more positive feel.

I have won the Scale Helicopter nationals with 8 in the class and I have won with 2 in the class.. which one does not have an asterisk attached to it? I have also lost with some of the same numbers....

I have won boat races with 2 in the class and with 70.. witch did I not forget about?... details, the place, the people.. just more meaning to it. That minimum number means different things to different people.. But.. 3.. its a stretch to get that "win" and not have that asterisk tided to it.. (the beauty is that ya got to run your boat!.. and that's never bad)... but i can do that testing.

Grim
 

Tom Foley

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
6,550
Apposing view here.. why would anybody travel for a 3 boat class? Nitro or not? That's a lot of money for a win with an asterisk attached to it.

5 and you have a better chance of more finishing.. (more then 5 and the numbers go up) The race looser does not give a hoot how many boats he lost too.. BUT WIN THAT same race with 5 OR MORE boats and its a much more positive feel.

I have won the Scale Helicopter nationals with 8 in the class and I have won with 2 in the class.. which one does not have an asterisk attached to it? I have also lost with some of the same numbers....

I have won boat races with 2 in the class and with 70.. witch did I not forget about?... details, the place, the people.. just more meaning to it. That minimum number means different things to different people.. But.. 3.. its a stretch to get that "win" and not have that asterisk tided to it.. (the beauty is that ya got to run your boat!.. and that's never bad)... but i can do that testing.

Grim
I'm not saying I would WANT only 3 boats but in the end at the finishline you will never see more than 3 ! . Also I don't go to a race to run just one boat . We are (I) talking about survival of a species here , Nitro .
 

Danny King

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
2,005
And now I'm running 8 to try and save 2 dying classes...... Again I ask what difference does it make 3 or 5 ? What difference does it really make to anyone , Points Race or Non Points race ? At this rate we need to be happy to see ANY Nitro boats show up . Why is 5 or 6 the magic number ? Expected No - Shows ?
It matters because if there are too many classes which there are. Then it will be a 3 round race. If someone runs 2 or 3 boats losing a round is a big deal.

The core issue is too many classes

Second is too many entries per driver.

Another main issue is too many district races. Brandon should have opted out of it. Last year the premo race had a better turn out than this district race. They had the freedom to offer the line up and rules they wanted. And did not have to write a big check to the district for a high point series most could care less about. Hence why the winter nitro race is not a district event. Clubs should have the freedom to do what is best for their area. And they do. Just opt out of the high point series.

Something to consider. If a guy has 3 or 4 boats. 2 classes make 5 boats and 2 don’t why would he still attend? So the domino effect takes place. He drops all 4 and then it knocks another class short which then drops 4 more boats and how many drivers?? It has to be looked at collectively. Bottom line to many classes…….

Sad part is if the district had done it different. And made the class line up smaller by combining some classes. And going to a 5 boat minimum. And limit the number of entries per driver. Not much would have changed from what they have now. Nitro would not be at every location. But would be possible at several. Then guys like many of us who have some gas would be able to enter Both and actually make it worthwhile.and bring up the driver count which is healthier than boat count. But by doing what they did catered to a small portion of the district. And the turnout is still getting smaller. And I can’t see it bringing in New people.
Club races bring in and offer new people a place to learn and run. And there isn’t much energy left for that with 8 or 9 high point races.

A main issue is there has been more discussion and ideas out in public on this post by non board members than before the decisions were made.

The biggest failure IMO for D3, is me. It was me who believed there would be thorough discussion in the open on ideas to be better. Not a group with in a group making all decisions. And a blanket format. My bad for having expectations of including all.
There is no perfect solution. But it is always easier to accept when the majority picks it and it’s transparent. Not a minority.
Thankfully IMPBA is back in Florida and has a completely different approach. And we can get back to what matters to many. And it isn’t high points.
One actually has to look no further then VOODOO. The biggest and best race for GAS AND NITRO in the country this year. Nothing even close to it in Florida.
 
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