FE Rules Proposal for IMPBA D12

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Chilli

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Jan 10, 2008
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For those of you that were not able to attend the D12 meeting today. The district voted to allow FE's to race in combined classes with nitro boats in the B-mono/P-mono, B-tunnel/P-spec tunnel and B-hydro/P-spec hydro classes. I am in the process of tweaking my rules proposal. At the request of those who attended the meeting, I have adopted the spec rules that were run at the tunnel championships on Charleston last year. Pleeeze..... I request all FE and affected nitro racers to look them over and provide any input. Thanks to Don and all the great members in D12!!!









Proposed D12 Open & FE/Nitro Combined Class Rules




Sections in red are not part of the rule, but an explanation to district and club officers of why the rule is needed.



1. All heats will be six laps unless specified in district race flyers. FE heats in Section J (Fast Electrics) are shorter. FE boaters need to know this so they can set up their boats for longer heats.

 

2. All heat starts will be in accordance with IMPBA Rulebook, Section G, Heat Racing Rules. Race starts (pit time & clock time) in Section J have different procedures. We want to keep in line with the nitro rules as much as possible to make things easier for the CDs and host club.

 

3. During a heat, a boat cannot stop for any reason. Doing so will result in being called a Dead Boat by the CD. A barrel roll, end over end flip or spin should not be called a dead boat as long as the boat continues in a forward motion. Racers shall respect the CD's judgment. When called a dead boat and the boat is capable of maneuvering, the racer shall hold his position until cleared by the CD. When cleared, the racer shall give way to all boats racing, then proceed directly to the infield and come to a stop behind the start buoy until the end of the heat. This rule is to reduce the advantage FE boats may have during situations that would lead to a stalled motor in a nitro boat. This is a modified version of the FE rules found in section J and is more stringent to level the playing field.

 

4. At the end of a heat as a boat finishes, one of two methods may be used:

A. A racer may choose to do a cool down lap and will continue all the way around the course before coming to shore.

B. A racer may choose to park in the middle of the race course. After the racer finishes the heat, the racer shall give way to all other boats and when safe to do so, pull into the course infield. The racer shall come to a stop and hold his position until all boats on their cool down lap have returned to shore. Only then may the racer may bring their boat in.

A boats electronic speed controller will build up more heat at partial throttle than at full throttle. The cool down lap after a heat can put additional strain on the ESC and possible destroy it. This is a modified version of the FE rules found in section J. Section J is geared toward FE only and says that the CD will pick one method for an end of race procedure. This is not an option when running combined classes.

 

5. A qualified FE racer shall be designated to retrieve all dead boats after a heat if there is a dead FE boat on the pond.

 

6. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, any FE boats having a noticeable speed advantage over the faster nitro boats will be asked to detune their boats to ensure competitive racing. If they do not comply, they shall be disqualified from the class for the race weekend.

 

7. LiPo battery packs shall be charged on a flameproof surface such as a metal table, Pyrex Dish or Clay Pot. A dry fire extinguisher or extinguishing agent such as a bucket of sand shall be kept in all FE racers pit area or where batteries are being charged. LiPo packs got a bad rap when they first came into the RC world. Most mishaps occurred because people improperly handled them, abused them or continued to use damaged packs.

 

8. FE "P" Spec Hydro/Tunnel Rules:

A. Motor Specifications

The intent of the P-Spec Motor Specifications is to define a motor and Electronic Speed Control (ESC) package to be used in Limited Spec class racing. Motors and ESCs in these specifications shall be based on readily available parts from past, current, and/or future Ready-to-Run offerings by various manufacturers. Only motors and ESCs on the approved motor list shall be allowed. Motors and ESCs may be mixed and matched amongst the approved parts as desired. Motors and ESCs are intended to be used as they are supplied. Therefore, no alterations or modifications are allowed, unless specifically stated in these rules. Motor shall be directly connected to the output drive shaft, no gear/belt over/under drives will be allowed.

B. Approved Motors

The motors approved for P-Spec racing are:

ProBoat - PBR3310 A3630-1500 4 pole brushless motor (BJ26, Formula FastTech, Miss Elam FE)

AquaCraft - AQUG7000 L36/56 7.2-18V 6 pole brushless motor (SV27), AQUG7001 36-56-2030 6 pole brushless motor (UL-1 Superior)

C. Approved Electronic Speed Controls (ESC):

The ESCs approved for P-Spec racing are:

ProBoat - PBR3309 45 amp brushless ESC (BJ26, Formula FastTech, Miss Elam FE)

AquaCraft - AQUM7010 AquaCraft 45 amp waterproof ESC (SV27), AQUM7011 AquaCraft 60 amp water cooled/proof ESC (UL-1 Superior)

D. Cooling: Motors and ESCs may be cooled as desired. Water jackets, cooling plates, electronic fans, etc., may be added as desired, so long as they don't perform an otherwise illegal function.

E. Contacts and Wiring: Originally supplied contacts may be replaced. Wire length on the power and phase leads may be altered to facilitate installation. If lengthening the original wires, additional wire may be added to the factory supplied wires. If shortening the original wires, the final contact to the Motor or ESC must be made using the original wiring. The intent of this rule is to prevent the removal and replacement of the original wiring in its entirety, by requiring that the final contact to the Motor or ESC be made by the original wiring.

F. Capacitors: Extra Capacitors may be used to protect the speed controller from ripple current.

G. Battery: Any amount and/or size of motors, any endbell, bearings, and magnets. Power Limits: 10.1 to 15 Volts nominal, any chemistry. Maximum of 2 packs in parallel. Maximum capacity of 10,000 mAh

H. Hull: In P-Spec Tunnel Class only Outboard Tunnel Hulls may be used.



 

 

 

 

 
 
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mike, looks good to me !! the only question i have concerns rule #6. i understand the rule & it's intent, but on the flip side, what are we gonna do about kentley :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: .............a big shout out to both you & don f. for hammering this one out ;) .
 
Hey Robin, Rule six is mostly designed for the P-Mono class which is not a spec class. Now a good question was brought up. If the spec motor is comparable in performace to a "B" boat in tunnel and hydro, why is is not comparable to a mono? The answer I don't know. But the increased drag of a mono hull over 30 inches will push the spec motors to their limits leading to a possible fried motor. Doug Smock from D13 emailed me this morning and highly suggested we stick with not running specs in mono. As far as I know, there are only two of us running mono's this year and word has been put out that we need to run with the pack. I hope some day that we will be able to a run P-mono class by itself and realy show you all what they are capable off, but for now I'm happy just having a place to race and learning how to drive in traffic.

As for Kentley, he wins with setup, knowledge, preparation and driving skill. Not technology.
wink.gif
 
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with all due respect to kentley's abilities, he still has to have a "magic wand" somewhere..........you could hand him a barn door & a washing machine motor & he'd set a record with it. the man is a master at getting the most out of a given combination, & more than willing to show you how he does it ;) :) .
 
Any other comments or suggestions??? Again, I based our Spec rules on the ones used at the Tunnnel Championships. I believe they were adopted from NAMBA. At the meeting, James discussed limiting battery capacity to 5000 mAh. I don't have a problem with that. A spec set up should burn well under 4000 mAh in a heat. If there are no other suggestions by weeks end, I'll send the final draft of the rules to Don on Sunday.

Thanks!
 
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I know this is a district set but very few are requiring the factory esc's or the 1p5000 configuration. The next rule set in NAMBA wont include either requirement.
 
Some info regarding OPC at the recent Az race this past weekend, as well as my findings racing them at the '09 Nat's and other races.

Top performing OPC setups won't use more than 2600 mah's for a 1 mile heat. That's all the motors can safely handle and it's the main reason why many of us feel a special mAh capacity limit for spec boats isn't needed. The same logic is applied to the ESC's, but neither restriction by your district would be a deal breaker for me! I'm glad to see the progress you guys have made with this.

With that said, many racers do use 4200-5000 mAh packs because it seems to provide a good balance of weight and voltage under load performance, and the pack isn't being abused since it's only being used 50-70% of it's capacity. Plus, they are typically the packs that the racer is using in other hulls.

All you're doing by going with a higher mAh pack is adding weight with a very minimal increase in voltage under load.

Over the past 3 years or so, many have found that the power in a spec/limited setup is limited by the motor itself, which makes additional limitations in mAh capacity or ESC's irrelevent.

Great job with this, and please keep us posted!
 
Thanks for the input guys and great info David. I believe Doug Smock said they were burning about 3300mAh per heat on the spec riggers at the D13 race last weekend.

I'm gonna leave the rules as is for now since thats what the guys who showed up at the D12 meeting wanted. But I'll continue to monitor what is being done in NAMBA and other IMPBA districts. We'll let you guys know what problems arise as the year progresses.
smile.gif


Mike
 
Good stuff David.

I think the only time a few more mah might pay off is in a true 4 minute offshore heat. Maybe a a pair 3300's to carry 6600 total or a single 6000 mah pack. I doubt the motors will take much more. I'll be testing this theory to pieces this season.

The motors provide the limitation with or without any limits on mah or parallelling. I was just trying to point out that any rules for spec didn't need special battery references or for that matter speedo requirements. The motor is like a fusible link. Just my opinion though.
 
We tried to keep it real simple.

Follow IMPBA the "P" power requirements and length restrictions, and use one of the three approved powerplants. (SV,BJ, UL-1)

At first I was all for spec ESCs as well, but this year the guys wanted to allow any ESC up to 125 amps. This allows them to use the old Baracudas and the ETTI 90s.

Doug
 
I am just glad that there was a way to allow you to run your boats in the district. When I went down to FL for winternats, I got to see a lot of FE boats run and was really amazed at what they are capable of!!!!! I will admitt that I am a gasoline guy, and most likely allways will be one, but he FE boats are starting to gather my interest.
 
Thanks for your support John, I did a few more FE builds over the winter but also finished my first gas boat. I still have to work out a few minor issues but I'm loving it. Just pump a little gas in her and she's ready to go. I just have to remember to stay clear of that pipe. I understand you won't make it to the Greensboro race but hope to see you in Queenstown in June.

Chilli
 
Thanks for your support John, I did a few more FE builds over the winter but also finished my first gas boat. I still have to work out a few minor issues but I'm loving it. Just pump a little gas in her and she's ready to go. I just have to remember to stay clear of that pipe. I understand you won't make it to the Greensboro race but hope to see you in Queenstown in June.

Chilli
They say you're not a gas boater until you've burned your forearm on a pipe. They also say your not a racer till you've hit the clock. :lol:

I'm still just a FEing Gas Boater.LOL

Doug
 
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Thanks for your support John, I did a few more FE builds over the winter but also finished my first gas boat. I still have to work out a few minor issues but I'm loving it. Just pump a little gas in her and she's ready to go. I just have to remember to stay clear of that pipe. I understand you won't make it to the Greensboro race but hope to see you in Queenstown in June.

Chilli
Yea, that is true, I will not be at the NC race, It just costs to much for me to drive down there in my older truck. But I will see ya in Queenstown in June and at the club races at ODMBA.......
 
We'll we had our first district race running combined FE classes in B-Mono and B-Hydro . All in all I think it went well. I started off the weekend making sure Danny (the main CD) was aware of the FE rules pertaining to heat racing. Danny said no problem and suggested we police ourselves as far as calling ourselves out using the dead boat rule. We did do that. My normally reliable mono gave me fits all weekend. On the last heat I did one lap and she died on me going into buoy four. After 30 seconds she showed signs of life. Rather than continue, I pulled her way off the course out of harms way. Kent had a sitution where he flipped but landed right side up. Others told him to keep going, but he chose to call himself dead. Kent asked me later whether it was the right call. Even though we did see gas and nitro boats in some interesting attitudes where the engines remained running, I still rather err on the conservative side for the FE's at this point and think Kent made the right call.

Knowing the non spec P-mono's could have an advantage over the B's, Don kept an eye on the B-mono heat. Even though I was running wide turns in the middle of the pack, he did notice a clear speed advantage on the straights and let me know about it after the heat. So I proped down from a 642 to a 640. I never lasted more than two laps on the following heats so I don't know if I still have an significant advantage, but at least I have a base line now from which to work. I think the Spec FE riggers ran nice with the nitro guys although the newbie FE drivers:rolleyes: were all over the course and the heat and humidity made things tough on the nitro drivers. We'll see how thing go at the next race.

There was one thing I was not comfortable with this weekend. We did not enforce the FE retrieval rule where a FE racer will retrieve boats after a heat when there is a dead FE boat. I will make sure we follow this rule at the Capitol Race. Most Gas/Nitro racers are not aware that props can spin even if the reciever is turned off and they need to be extra carefull to stay clear of the prop at all times. Also, the prop on my hydro was spinning on and off when she flipped even though my transmitter was still on. My guess is the antenna being under water along the ignition from the outboard was causing interference.

So thats my recap for the weekend. If any participants have any questions, comments or concerns about anything that happened this past weekend, chime in. And just a final thanks to the fine folks in D12 who offered their help, tips, advice, and cookies. This is my second year with you all so I knew what to expect, but I think Kent was overwhelmed by your hospitality and generosity.
 
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Great job, guys, and thanks to Dist 12 for allowing this to happen! Good luck with the rest of the season.
 
We'll we had our first district race running combined FE classes in B-Mono and B-Hydro . All in all I think it went well. I started off the weekend making sure Danny (the main CD) was aware of the FE rules pertaining to heat racing. Danny said no problem and suggested we police ourselves as far as calling ourselves out using the dead boat rule. We did do that. My normally reliable mono gave me fits all weekend. On the last heat I did one lap and she died on me going into buoy four. After 30 seconds she showed signs of life. Rather than continue, I pulled her way off the course out of harms way. Kent had a sitution where he flipped but landed right side up. Others told him to keep going, but he chose to call himself dead. Kent asked me later whether it was the right call. Even though we did see gas and nitro boats in some interesting attitudes where the engines remained running, I still rather err on the conservative side for the FE's at this point and think Kent made the right call.

Knowing the non spec P-mono's could have an advantage over the B's, Don kept an eye on the B-mono heat. Even though I was running wide turns in the middle of the pack, he did notice a clear speed advantage on the straights and let me know about it after the heat. So I proped down from a 642 to a 640. I never lasted more than two laps on the following heats so I don't know if I still have an significant advantage, but at least I have a base line now from which to work. I think the Spec FE riggers ran nice with the nitro guys although the newbie FE drivers:rolleyes: were all over the course and the heat and humidity made things tough on the nitro drivers. We'll see how thing go at the next race.

There was one thing I was not comfortable with this weekend. We did not enforce the FE retrieval rule where a FE racer will retrieve boats after a heat when there is a dead FE boat. I will make sure we follow this rule at the Capitol Race. Most Gas/Nitro racers are not aware that props can spin even if the reciever is turned off and they need to be extra carefull to stay clear of the prop at all times. Also, the prop on my hydro was spinning on and off when she flipped even though my transmitter was still on. My guess is the antenna being under water along the ignition from the outboard was causing interference.

So thats my recap for the weekend. If any participants have any questions, comments or concerns about anything that happened this past weekend, chime in. And just a final thanks to the fine folks in D12 who offered their help, tips, advice, and cookies. This is my second year with you all so I knew what to expect, but I think Kent was overwhelmed by your hospitality and generosity.

You got that right Mike! I WAS overwhelmed by everyone's hospitality and generosity!! I was actually expecting the opposite being a first time racer with a Fast Electric boat!! I thought that Danny and "Pop" Weimer were very, very good to me! Thank you guys for making me feel at home! Also, I think that it was very nice of Don Ferrette and John finch to take time with me and help me with my steering setting....after all, it was the first time that the JAE got wet!!!! I did not like the stock turn fin at all....Just MY opinion here! I did bolt on a different fin and now the boat accepts the turns much better!!!

I am looking forward to meeting up with everyone in dist. 12 again...what a great bunch they all are!!!

Thanks again Mike for all that you have accomplished to get us running FE's this season!!!!!

-Kent
 

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