Outboard Motor verses Inboard Motor that acts like an Outboard

All Outboard Tunnel Racers, we need you help. Seems like I opened a can of "Outboards" with my post below. This has all been taking place under another thread but I thought it warranted exposure to everyone. Please read below and let us all know how you think as this very topic can affect how we think about outboards today. I think its very obvious, an outboard is mounted outboard on a boat, and a inboard is mounted inboard on a boat. This to me is so obvious I didn't think it needed to be clarified in the rule books, but with the answers below and the lack of a fully staffed technical committee at the IMPBA, (the hydro and technical director positions are vacant), it may come to just that...........

I have included what I felt to be very clear rule descriptions when it comes to outboards below:

Wikipedia description:

Outboard Motor

An outboard motor is a propulsion system for boats, consisting of a self-contained unit that includes engine,gearbox and propeller or jet drive, designed to be affixed to the outside of the transom and are the most common motorized method of propelling small watercraft. As well as providing propulsion, outboards provide steering control, as they are designed to pivot over their mountings and thus control the direction of thrust. The skeg also acts as arudder when the engine is not running. Compared to inboard motors, outboard motors can be easily removed for storage or repairs.

When boats are out of service or being drawn through shallow waters, outboard motors can be tilted up (tilt forward over the transom mounts) to elevate the propeller and lower unit out of the water to avoid accumulation of seaweed, underwater hazards such as rocks, and to clear road hazards while trailering.

Transom

In naval architecture, a transom is the surface that forms the stern of a vessel. Transoms may be flat or curved and they may be vertical, raked forward, also known as a retroussé or reverse transom, angling forward (toward the bow) from the waterline to the deck, or raked aft, often simply called "raked", angling in the other direction.[1][2][3] The bottom tip of the transom can be approximately on the waterline, in which case the stern of the vessel is referred to as a "transom stern", or the hull can continue so that the centreline is well above the waterline before terminating in a transom, in which case it is referred to as a "counter stern"[4] or "cutaway stern."[5]

Posted Yesterday, 03:45 PM

rumrunner, on 03 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

Ok it's not a45 lower and it's not a gas, it a custom go devil lower like otto's 40 boat , it use 1/4 flex's,

Mic are you saying the servo city geared servo's are to slow, when I use 2 servo's I never link them one to one arm one to the other

on 12 November 2011- Ron Shaw said:

I hate to break the news to you, but that's NOT an outboard!!!!! Outboards are meant to be mounted OUTBOARD, and not INBOARD on a turntable. It should be mounted on the transom of the boat and fully visible. Outboards bring a dimension of issues such as COG that takes a lot of time to figure out. If you are building it to run in a Hydro Class, that's great, but if you are building it to run in an outboard class, get a lower unit from K&B, Lawless, Hyper Performance, or OS, and figure out how to get it setup, consistent, and competetive, like the rest of us that love the outboard class. You could also petition the IMPBA and NAMBA to maybe create a new class, like maybe an inboard/outboard class, but what you are building has no place running with outboards.........sorry........

Posted Yesterday, 05:47 PM

rumrunner, on 12 November 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:

 

Sorry but i'am not the first one to do this , i'am just doing what some else has done before me, as for not following rules I think your

Wrong there, if John Otto runs this in setup in 40 tunnel and open tunnel and there's other that run it gas tunnels, I would think Otto knows the rules, right know I run a Mac 84 on a lawless , this is a E/F class tunnel at the world tunnel champs , there's not al lot of people that run in this class but it still is a class ,so I can run it .

No hard feelings

Shane

 

 

Shane,

Just because others may be doing it doesn't make it correct. This isn't about feelings and it's not personal, it's also not right. If you can send me a picture of a full size tunnel that runs an inboardnengine on a turntable, in the outboard tunnel class legally, then I will stand corrected. Think about it, where does the term outboard come from? If you really consider the class of boats the outboard tunnels represent, and not make this personal, you will agree. Just go and pick up a lower like the rest of us, hang it off of the transom as the class represents, and let's run outboard tunnels......... If you want to make it an inboard, just run it with the hydros. If you want to develope a competitive OUTBOARD tunnel edge, do it the old fashioned way, by hours of testing different hulls, props, engine/pipe setups, COG, and tilt, not by running an INBOARD setup that automatically gives you a technical edge, not intended for this class.........

Kris Flynn posted Yesterday, 06:11 PM

I think Ron is scared to race you Shane. lol

OB Tunnels ROCK!!!

AMPBA #430. SRMPBC

They call me "Scuba Kris, the underwater boat finder" HAHAHA

rumrunner Posted Yesterday, 06:12 PM

I know it's not personal, and the only thing I run is tunnels ,so I understand what your saying, but this is the old fashion way of thinking which is the way I thought till I saw one run ,there will always be people doing things different then all the rest of us , boats have changed , motors have changed ,I just think of this as change

rumrunner Posted Yesterday, 06:29 PM

Kris Flynn, on 12 November 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

 

I think Ron is scared to race you Shane. lol

 

 

Now that's funny

you coming to the tunnel champs this year

rumrunner, on 12 November 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

I know it's not personal, and the only thing I run is tunnels ,so I understand what your saying, but this is the old fashion way of thinking which is the way I thought till I saw one run ,there will always be people doing things different then all the rest of us , boats have changed , motors have changed ,I just think of this as change

Ron Shaw Posted Yesterday, 07:04 PM

Shane,

I am all about change, but we need to stay within the basics. I know I have been away for a while, and believe me, it's great to be back.... I have always been partial to tunnels, that is why I spoke up on this. I want us to keep the integrity of the class intact, and running inboards against outboards doesn't do that. Yes, the out drive turns with the motor, but the reality of it is, it's not an outboard, period. My reason for speaking up wasn't about you at all, so I am glad you are not taking this personal. I saw John's boat in Charleston, and I said right then to a couple of people, that is not an outboard, and should not be allowed. I have known John for many years, used to race against him and consider him a friend. This isn't personal against him either. I don't blame him for trying, just can't believe no one else has said anything. I just dont want to see this get out of control, and with you building one tells me there are probably more.

This to me is just like trying to run a hull with multiple wetted surfaces, in the mono class. Let some one try that and I can assure you, it will be squashed right away by many of the mono guys, including the Mono Technical Director John Finch. The IMPBA Hydro, (would include outboards), and Tecthical Director positions are open. John Equi used to be the National Technical Committee Director and I am sure if he was still in that position, he would agree that this design is not an outboard. In my discussions with others, it seems as though this position has been weak since he took on other roles within the IMPBA. With all of this being said, and until these positions are filled, I think we should all try our best to uphold the integrity of each of the classes and the types of hulls and designs they were intended to be, don't you? I'm not saying you shouldnt build whatever boat you want to build. Just keep in mind the rules and intent associated with the classes where you intend to compete. Get your competitive edge by hard work and skill, not by blatantly ignoring the rules and intent of the classes..........

TopFuel443 Posted Today, 10:31 AM

Otto talked to me about his design before he built the boat a couple years ago to be sure it would be legal. It is TOTALLY legal from a rule book stand point, and thats the bottom line as to why it is legal to run with us. I understand your point Ron, and agree with much of it from a historical standpoint. However, its legal as the rules are written. John is also not the first to do this either, it was done a few years before out west for a straightaway outboard. Is it pushing the rules? Sure. but thats what happens with any level of competition.

 

If someone isnt happy with the way the rules are written that allow such different designs to be legal, you have every right to propose an amendment to the rule book to re-word it to disallow the "out of the box thinking".

 

The words 'intention of the class" has ignited much bickering in year past (mostly with the Sport tunnel class). Its impossile to argue with someones perception, especially when the rule book leaves so many things wide open.

 

I take it as a challenge - to step up, even with the more conventional outboard set-up. Lets be honest, Otto would be a SUPER competitive person, even if he were racing a 2x4.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil guys.

IMPBA National Outboard Director

 

Founding Member of the Charleston Model Boaters

 

James Clegg, Atlanta Georgia

topfuel443, on 13 November 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

Otto talked to me about his design before he built the boat a couple years ago to be sure it would be legal. It is TOTALLY legal from a rule book stand point, and thats the bottom line as to why it is legal to run with us. I understand your point Ron, and agree with much of it from a historical standpoint. However, its legal as the rules are written. John is also not the first to do this either, it was done a few years before out west for a straightaway outboard. Is it pushing the rules? Sure. but thats what happens with any level of competition.

 

If someone isnt happy with the way the rules are written that allow such different designs to be legal, you have every right to propose an amendment to the rule book to re-word it to disallow the "out of the box thinking".

 

The words 'intention of the class" has ignited much bickering in year past (mostly with the Sport tunnel class). Its impossile to argue with someones perception, especially when the rule book leaves so many things wide open.

 

I take it as a challenge - to step up, even with the more conventional outboard set-up. Lets be honest, Otto would be a SUPER competitive person, even if he were racing a 2x4.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil guys.

 

 

Ron Shaw Posted Today:

 

Gabe,

I'm glad everyone is keeping it civil as well. No need to put Otto on a mountain...... He is an awesome competitor no doubt. Doesn't matter if he can beat someone with a 2x4 as long as it has an outboard engine and not an inboard. Please don't make this about him because it's not, it's about what's right. I have spoken with several outboard people and they ALL agree. I guess me coming back after being away and seeing it made it blatently obvious to me. I consider John Finch one of the best mono racers ever, but just because he is John Finch, I don't see him expecting other fellow boaters to allow him to break obvious rules. Its well known by now, (.... ), that I consider Tommy Lee another one of the best outboard racers ever, and when he experimented with inboards on outboard tunnels, he raced them in the inboard hydro class. Again, I think the world of John and this is NOT about him. I am not trying to squash "out of the box thinking", just "out of the box thinking" that breaks the rules.

My point, it automatically breaks the very first rule that does not need to explained in the rule book, it is NOT an outboard. It is an INBOARD. Just because it meets the rule of the drive shaft turning with the engine, it still breaks the known rule of NOT being an Outboard. If it is not fully visable and hanging off the transom of the boat, it is NOT an outboard. If we allow these "known" rules to be broken, you are opening up every class for the same to happen. If the rule book needs clarification to point out the most obvious, then we need to do just that. But obvious rules should not need to be explained and this is where the technical committees come into play so they can make these rulings and keep personal feelings out. If not, inboards are going to continue to show up at the races and bleed over to other classes as well, such as outboard hydros. If you put the respect we all share for Otto aside, not make it about him, and think about the hobby we all enjoy, you being one of the most competitive true outboard tunnel racers I have met since returning, and the fact that although you are not officially in the technical area of the IMPBA but you are the Outboard Director, you have to agree.........

rumrunner Posted Today, 11:36 AM

Thanks for clearing that up

Ron if I kept my motor in the same place but instead of it be mounted to the bottom, I put a transom there and made a bracket to mount the motor from ,would you say that's a outboard ?

rumrunner, on 13 November 2011 - 11:36 AM, said:

 

Thanks for clearing that up

 

 

Ron Shaw Posted today:

 

Shane,

It's not really cleared up, just out there for opinions such as Gabe's. Since you are in the process of building one of these, would you start a thread on this discussion as many outboard racers will probably need to join this conversation? Not many people are going to see this discussion here....

moparbarn Posted Today, 12:08 PM

WHEW, where to start, where to go????????? i'm as much of an outboard purist as anyone, rc or full scale. i can wholeheartedly agree with ron's opinions, it does not meet the "CLASSICAL" notion of an outboard. but, without thinking outside of the box, this hobby will stagnate. if the engine, lower, flex, prop & skeg all turn as a unit, it is technically & LEGALLY an outboard, as the current rules are written. ron, just keep doing what you're doing, your boats are fast & handle well B) . make them beat you, it will take some doin', imho!! like terry keeley says "if you do what you have always done, you will get what you always got", or something close to that . nobody's asking you to like it ron, or run it. but, as long as it's legal, you will have to race against it. i'm not trying to pick as side here, hell i don't really like a lawless or rek lower, just because they cant the engine foward. looks nothing like a "real" outboard, they all stand up straight, & my ob tunnel engines will also . but this hobby needs all the foward, out of the box thinking it can get, as long as the rules are followed & enforced. see ya'll at the pond .

AIRWALK aka robin stebbins

getting old ain't for sissy's

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DON'T PLAY STUPID WITH ME, I'M BETTER AT IT !!

 

 

THOSE WHO DANCE ARE CONSIDERED INSANE BY THOSE WHO CANNOT HEAR THE MUSIC

moparbarn, on 13 November 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

 

WHEW, where to start, where to go????????? i'm as much of an outboard purist as anyone, rc or full scale. i can wholeheartedly agree with ron's opinions, it does not meet the "CLASSICAL" notion of an outboard. but, without thinking outside of the box, this hobby will stagnate. if the engine, lower, flex, prop & skeg all turn as a unit, it is technically & LEGALLY an outboard, as the current rules are written. ron, just keep doing what you're doing, your boats are fast & handle well B) . make them beat you, it will take some doin', imho!! like terry keeley says "if you do what you have always done, you will get what you always got", or something close to that . nobody's asking you to like it ron, or run it. but, as long as it's legal, you will have to race against it. i'm not trying to pick as side here, hell i don't really like a lawless or rek lower, just because they cant the engine foward. looks nothing like a "real" outboard, they all stand up straight, & my ob tunnel engines will also . but this hobby needs all the foward, out of the box thinking it can get, as long as the rules are followed & enforced. see ya'll at the pond .

 

Ron Shaw posted today:

 

Hey Robbin,

I'm glad you chimed in......... I think you may be getting caught up in the "other" technical points to describe and outboard, instead of the obvious, being an outboard mounted on the transom of the boat. Remember the old saying, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck? This contraption is not an outboard engine. It may have a drive system that moves with the engine, but it is not an outboard. If they can figure out how to mount it OUTSIDE of the boat, on the transom, it will be an outboard. Right now, it's an inboard. Since you are familiar with full size, I don't think this would be allowed on a full size outboard tunnel, do you? Outboards need to be mounted outboard on the transom of the boat, not inboard on a turntable. It's WAY too obvious here and not about running against them. Otto' s didn't finish a heat in Charleston so it's not about not wanting to run against it, it's about keeping the integrity of the class.

rumrunner Posted Today, 12:29 PM

I try to race once a year because it cost me a lot more to get to the races than most, and becaue to me it's about compition that,s why I go to the tunnel champs where the compition is at the highest , I've race with the best in the world for the last several years

No need to say all there names ,but I consider them all friends ,and if they had a problem with this setup they would have told me ,if this setup Would make it easy to get a tunnels to be faster everybody would be doing it, but it's not ,it still a challeging setup to get working,

At the end of the day I just wan't to race , so if they say I can't race it ,I won't ,because I still have a HORNENT WITH A MAC84

 

Thanks shane

moparbarn Posted Today, 12:39 PM

ron, i couldn't agree with you more. it doesn't looks like a duck, but it does swim & quack like a duck. you may argue swim, but it does drive the prop through the lower, by a flex, i.e.-swim........i very probably will never run one, i like my ob's to look traditional. but that route is obviously not for all. if not an outboard, ron what would you classify it as. it IS NOT an inboard, engine is not mounted solid, nonturning to the hull with a solid,non turning drive system. nor is it an inboard/outboard, with an engine mounted solid, nonturning to the hull, with a pivoting outdrive. yes, as ugly & unconventional as it is, IT IS an outboard. remember when they first brought rear engine cars to indy? what about the first cabover hydros? unconventional? YES!! different? YES!! exploring the rules interpertation? YES!! but all great advancements to their respective sports, & commonly accepted as "the norm" now. i'll have to check the ABPA rules on their take for full scale ob's, been quite a few mango seasons since i raced them. hell, if i had my way, full scale ob's would all still be kneelers, with cable steering :lol: :lol: .........

AIRWALK aka robin stebbins

getting old ain't for sissy's

Whew, that pretty much catches everyone up. Now hopefully we can have some serious discussion on this topic!!!!!.......

Hi ron and any1 else

on here its states If you can send me a picture of a full size tunnel that runs an inboardnengine on a turntable, in the outboard tunnel class legally, then I will stand corrected.

Have a look at this,these will be racing with outboards in 2012,inboard V6 with caudwell marine outdrive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4buTnduRJXc

rumrunner said:

Ron if I kept my motor in the same place but instead of it be mounted to the bottom, I put a transom there and made a bracket to mount the motor from ,would you say that's a outboard ?

Click to expand...

Shane,

To really be an outboard it should be mounted outboard of the hull. If you cut up your boat, create a transom where you have the engine mounted now, (similar to an Aeromarine tunnel. they tried this years ago), hang this contraption off of the transom of the boat, yes it would be an outboard. I hate you got caught up in this discussion as it has been brewing for a while, but seeing you were building one and realizing others may be as well, I thought it warranted discussions and rulings now before it gets totally out of control and destroys the integrity of this class and the intent it was created to represent.......

Darren Elson said:

Hi ron and any1 elseon here its states If you can send me a picture of a full size tunnel that runs an inboardnengine on a turntable, in the outboard tunnel class legally, then I will stand corrected.

Have a look at this,these will be racing with outboards in 2012,inboard V6 with caudwell marine outdrive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4buTnduRJXc

Click to expand...

Guess you will stand corrected

Ron you have to admit that cool