Full complement ceramic bearings

I have bin messing with some new bearing and thought I would let every one know the results now that I have some run time on them.

I bought some inexpensive full complement bearing made for mountain bike hubs. $6 each.

Thy are made with steel balls. not very good ones at that.

I sent some to Greg Settle to check out and the races turn out to be real nice and true.

Greg re-balled the bearing with the right size top grade balls to set the clearance to his specks.

Thy are looser than any stock bearing out there and are set to the right clearance using differing size balls.

Well I have run them in my RS 1.01 now and have 3 gallons of fuel on them. thats about 20 runs.

thy are as smooth as if thy where never run.

Wiss or other bearings I have use would be done by now and need changing.

The front bearing was always the one going bad quick.

Not any more!!!!!!

The full complement is taking the load real good and the balls are not swapping steel with the races.

Thy are the way to go If you ask me.

I am sold!!!!!!!

David, thanks for sharing your findings with us.

You are welcome Elias.

Just thought this might help out a few fellow boaters.

Gentlemen,

Just a nickel's worth of info. Many years ago, soon after K&B came out with the 21 (I told you it was many years ago) after we began to get some HP and RPM's out of them, the cage in the large bearing would suddenly disintegrate without any warning. I built some full compliment bearings and this problem went away. However, about this time, the engine picked up a new trick. After it ran for a few laps, it would begin to lean out and sometimes die if it was not very rich in the beginning of the run. Could not pinpoint the problem. This was experienced by several other boaters also.

Then one day, I was running one of these bearings in an engine on the dyno and it began to have the same symptoms. When I touched the lower engine case I found the problem. The bearing was heating up the lower case enough that it was heating the incoming fuel charge, causing the engine to lean out.

We went away from the full compliment bearing to a synthetic cage bearing and the problem went away. The engine even turned a few more RPM's. The balls were rubbing against each other when they were rolling, generating excessive heat.

Just thought that I would pass this along.

Charles

the information and history here,.. incredible.. Wish it would have kept me from breaking 2 boats this weekend!!!

dwilfong said:

I have bin messing with some new bearing and thought I would let every one know the results now that I have some run time on them.

I bought some inexpensive full complement bearing made for mountain bike hubs. $6 each.

Thy are made with steel balls. not very good ones at that.

I sent some to Greg Settle to check out and the races turn out to be real nice and true.

Greg re-balled the bearing with the right size top grade balls to set the clearance to his specks.

Thy are looser than any stock bearing out there and are set to the right clearance using differing size balls.

Well I have run them in my RS 1.01 now and have 3 gallons of fuel on them. thats about 20 runs.

thy are as smooth as if thy where never run.

Wiss or other bearings I have use would be done by now and need changing.

The front bearing was always the one going bad quick.

Not any more!!!!!!

The full complement is taking the load real good and the balls are not swapping steel with the races.

Thy are the way to go If you ask me.

I am sold!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

David I replace my bearings on my 101RS maybe every 1 1/2 years i run them hard when im home and testing record trials ect. and they last of course i don't use the regular CMB Bearing on all my Motors ;-)

Charles Perdue said:

Gentlemen,

Just a nickel's worth of info. Many years ago, soon after K&B came out with the 21 (I told you it was many years ago) after we began to get some HP and RPM's out of them, the cage in the large bearing would suddenly disintegrate without any warning. I built some full compliment bearings and this problem went away. However, about this time, the engine picked up a new trick. After it ran for a few laps, it would begin to lean out and sometimes die if it was not very rich in the beginning of the run. Could not pinpoint the problem. This was experienced by several other boaters also.

Then one day, I was running one of these bearings in an engine on the dyno and it began to have the same symptoms. When I touched the lower engine case I found the problem. The bearing was heating up the lower case enough that it was heating the incoming fuel charge, causing the engine to lean out.

We went away from the full compliment bearing to a synthetic cage bearing and the problem went away. The engine even turned a few more RPM's. The balls were rubbing against each other when they were rolling, generating excessive heat.

Just thought that I would pass this along.

Charles

Click to expand...

Thank you Charles!

Charles Perdue said:

Gentlemen,

Just a nickel's worth of info. Many years ago, soon after K&B came out with the 21 (I told you it was many years ago) after we began to get some HP and RPM's out of them, the cage in the large bearing would suddenly disintegrate without any warning. I built some full compliment bearings and this problem went away. However, about this time, the engine picked up a new trick. After it ran for a few laps, it would begin to lean out and sometimes die if it was not very rich in the beginning of the run. Could not pinpoint the problem. This was experienced by several other boaters also.

Then one day, I was running one of these bearings in an engine on the dyno and it began to have the same symptoms. When I touched the lower engine case I found the problem. The bearing was heating up the lower case enough that it was heating the incoming fuel charge, causing the engine to lean out.

We went away from the full compliment bearing to a synthetic cage bearing and the problem went away. The engine even turned a few more RPM's. The balls were rubbing against each other when they were rolling, generating excessive heat.

Just thought that I would pass this along.

Charles

Click to expand...

Here's 2 cents to add to Charles' nickel................

Tested ceramics a number of years back and found that the races themselves did not hold up to the ceramic balls. Even though they would still feel smooth the races were wearing out prematurely and they needed replacing as much as when "normal" high quality bearings were due for changing. Tried all types of oil percentages, all synthetic, synthetic/castor blends, made no difference and when a ceramic ball failed destroying an engine that was enough of that for us. Haven't messed with ceramics since........................

I had some bearing failures with my VAC 1.05 build and started asking question.

Then was lead to Greg and started asking more.

Spent many hours on the phone talking about bearing with him.

Learned allot form listening to what he had to say.

There are many things about bearing that I never knew that where explained to me and all the testing involved in finding this out.

Some times you get a good stock bearing and some times you don't.

Run out and radial clearances make a bearing a good bearing.

It is all in how good your balls are and at what point in the tolerance window your bearing where made.

Front bearing and rear bearing need different fits as to the tolerance.

The newest ceramic balls are real nice as to there finish and weight compared to steel balls.

All ball are not created equal.

As for the balls rubbing each other heavy balls run different than light balls.

Taking a high speed pic of a MAX bearing running with light balls thy never touch.

Also the extra clearance makes room for a oil film where tight fit dose not.

I could go on but I think you all get the drift.

It's all in the clearnce in the bearing!!!!!!!!

If it ain't right it will not last.

How many different 3/16 ball are there in .0001 size increments ?

Dose .0004 clearnce change make a diffrence if it is a front bearing or a rear one?

dwilfong said:

The newest ceramic balls are real nice

As for the balls rubbing each other heavy balls run different than light balls.

Click to expand...

OK !!! :lol: :lol:

Tom Foley said:

dwilfong said:

The newest ceramic balls are real nice

As for the balls rubbing each other heavy balls run different than light balls.

Click to expand...

OK !!! :lol: :lol:

Click to expand...

Ya I was waiting for some one to make a BALL joke. <_<

I would have put money on ANDY.

Then again You where in the running also.

How heavy are YOUR balls?????

Anyhow. It also matter which side of the full compliment bearing faces out on which end. Similar to an angular contact bearing. My thinking is full compliment on the rear (big end near the counterweight), and angular contact on the front. I just need a way to set the clearance and lock in the bearing race to the case. Guess I need a billet case with a threaded front bearing retainer.

dwilfong said:

Tom Foley said:

dwilfong said:

The newest ceramic balls are real nice

As for the balls rubbing each other heavy balls run different than light balls.

Click to expand...

OK !!! :lol: :lol:

Click to expand...

Ya I was waiting for some one to make a BALL joke. <_<

I would have put money on ANDY.

Then again You where in the running also.

Click to expand...

Well I think that you are playing with your balls. Bearings are bearings are bearings. To many other things going on in a motor to worry about bearings. If you could build or buy a perfect set of bearings it will not make the motor run better. And don't think that it would make the motor last longer with those kind bearings either. You will be spending all your time measuring fits in the motor and the bearings trying to find the best setup. And it will not help at all. <_<

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.
This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.
The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.
Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.
Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

dwilfong said:

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.

This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.

The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.

Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.

Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

Click to expand...

Oh well you keep on going buying those $41.00 bearing and I will keep buying my $15.00 bearing and my motors will out live yours. LOL

You can not win this battle on bearings with me. I repair electric motors from small to large and we repair shafts and end housings for bearing fits every day. My bearing bill is about $20,000 to $30,000 a month.

So what do you want to know about bearings and there fits? I have lots of information.

Mark Bullard said:

dwilfong said:

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.

This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.

The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.

Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.

Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

Click to expand...

Oh well you keep on going buying those $41.00 bearing and I will keep buying my $15.00 bearing and my motors will out live yours. LOL

You can not win this battle on bearings with me. I repair electric motors from small to large and we repair shafts and end housings for bearing fits every day. My bearing bill is about $20,000 to $30,000 a month.

So what do you want to know about bearings and there fits? I have lots of information.

Click to expand...

Where you get those bearings Mark? Im paying a lot more than that

Mark Bullard said:

dwilfong said:

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.

This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.

The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.

Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.

Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

Click to expand...

Oh well you keep on going buying those $41.00 bearing and I will keep buying my $15.00 bearing and my motors will out live yours. LOL

You can not win this battle on bearings with me. I repair electric motors from small to large and we repair shafts and end housings for bearing fits every day. My bearing bill is about $20,000 to $30,000 a month.

So what do you want to know about bearings and there fits? I have lots of information.

Click to expand...

Mark - I am very interested in your above response.

Not to raise a major debate here, but I am very curious and ask if you can give a brief explanation based on your experience on why "bearings are bearings"??

I have run both ceramic and steel ball bearings in 1/8 scale on-road cars, and to be honest, have never found any real difference, but, have always followed the heard, spent the extra money and bought ceramics because I was told they were better.

To throw another point in here. My understanding is, and please correct me if I am wrong, but modern turbo chargers now run with ball bearings. They operate at far higher temperatures and speeds compared to our model engines, and last for thousand's of hours operation. If clearances, ball types and sizes are so important, then those turbo bearings must be something special.

Tim

Many on here Run O.E. bearings that are C3 P1 (low Quailty ) Bearings that are Junk when they are New... & if the parts are not hitting each other day one? the brg fit will go away very quickly.. Go to a C3 P5 or a C3 P9 Bearing........ Google it & find the results for youself.... the brg mfgers will tell you all about the million different Quality brgs. then we can talk about bearings........ the R/C Boat Application calls for a C3 (loose fit) due to the rapid temp changes in the engine itself along with the methonal fuel .... But you can buy a Much Better quality brg than a P1..... with a P5 or P9 Quality.

Exactly Joe that is why I had theses bearings custom made.

Best grade balls money can buy and set to the proper clearance.

All for $41 each,and that is pricey because thy have lots of balls to handle a big load.

(insert joke here)

This is the first time Greg has done MAX bearings as the bearings where not known till I found them surfing the net.

I was willing to take a chance as the races are cryogenic treated special steel to start,and when checked most where very true.

Greg was more than willing to work with me to give it a try.

Not every one was good but at less than $6 a pop thew the bad ones in the trash.

I am not saying this is some thing every one needs or will want.

Just figured I would share my testing for those that are interested.

SayMikey said:

Mark Bullard said:

dwilfong said:

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.

This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.

The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.

Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.

Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

Click to expand...

Oh well you keep on going buying those $41.00 bearing and I will keep buying my $15.00 bearing and my motors will out live yours. LOL

You can not win this battle on bearings with me. I repair electric motors from small to large and we repair shafts and end housings for bearing fits every day. My bearing bill is about $20,000 to $30,000 a month.

So what do you want to know about bearings and there fits? I have lots of information.

Click to expand...

Where you get those bearings Mark? Im paying a lot more than that

Click to expand...

Tim van Schyndel said:

Mark Bullard said:

dwilfong said:

All I know is that for $41 a bearing investment thy will pay for them self and more.

This is just a test for some new eng builds I am working on.

The VAC 1.05 and OPS 1.27 will need this in them to live.

Balancing the eng is a must also to keep things alive at RPM.

I have started this week on learning the balancing trick.

If you think good bearing and a balanced eng do not make a difference than you are well behind the curve.

Didn't have to spend any time on measuring the fits this has bin done already and well tested in many record holding eng.

Just had to listen with a open mind to the reality of what is what.

Old ways are hard to over come .

With me there are no old ways as I have cherry's hanging all over me.

O and I don't play with the balls. I have professional do it for me that knows all the tricks.

Click to expand...

Oh well you keep on going buying those $41.00 bearing and I will keep buying my $15.00 bearing and my motors will out live yours. LOL

You can not win this battle on bearings with me. I repair electric motors from small to large and we repair shafts and end housings for bearing fits every day. My bearing bill is about $20,000 to $30,000 a month.

So what do you want to know about bearings and there fits? I have lots of information.

Click to expand...

Mark - I am very interested in your above response.

Not to raise a major debate here, but I am very curious and ask if you can give a brief explanation based on your experience on why "bearings are bearings"??

I have run both ceramic and steel ball bearings in 1/8 scale on-road cars, and to be honest, have never found any real difference, but, have always followed the heard, spent the extra money and bought ceramics because I was told they were better.

To throw another point in here. My understanding is, and please correct me if I am wrong, but modern turbo chargers now run with ball bearings. They operate at far higher temperatures and speeds compared to our model engines, and last for thousand's of hours operation. If clearances, ball types and sizes are so important, then those turbo bearings must be something special.

Tim

Click to expand...

I have many sources for bearings. I just contact them for a quote and he who has the best price gets the order.

Bearings have different tolerances in the races and balls. The ABEC numbers are the tolerance of the bearing races and balls. The lower the number the widest of the tolerance. The C numbers is the tolerance of the bearing itself. There is a lot of information at bearing manufactures websites on the ABEC / C numbers.

Most ceramic bearings are run in spindle units. They have very high ABEC numbers with low C numbers. The races and balls are both ceramic. They run very hot. So they must be run in a pressure oiling system with a cooling system to keep it all cool. You will see this in very large high tolerance CNC machines.

Not good for our motors. A few years ago some of the off brand bearing companies tried to run ceramic balls in steel races. Just another snake oil salesman. I had customers wanting them in there motors. So we installed them know what would be the end results. The biggest problem was heat and split races causing major faliures. I think that I heard some of the boat racers at that time seeing the same thing.

Now the full complement bearing or max type will carry the radial load better but will not carry the speed of the shaft. The max bearing is made for high loads with slow speeds. A bearing like this will produce a lot of heat in our motors.

So what do we use? You are not going to reinvent the mousetrap or the wheel. So we must use the best bearing for the job without going over the deep end. The bearing you should look for is a ABEC 1 to 3 with a C3 fit, plactic retainer. Different manufactures use a different number for the ABEC rating. The common ABEC letter is a P#. So a 6001 P3 C3 would be a ABEC 3 /C3 fit bearing. I always forget what the prefix is for the plactic retainer.And you may never find these numbers other than the size on a bearing.

In small bearings like we run the ABEC 1 is so good it could be classed as a ABEC 3 bearing and they will run for a long time. Don't depend on it but don't be affraid of it either. I always order C3 / ABEC 3 bearings most of the time. I have run higher ABEC numbers but do not think that I get the money worth in running them. I always like to change my 101's every two seasons.

One other thing some motors are harder on bearings than others. Crankshaft lenght is what makes or breaks the service life. Except the 101 a short crank will fail a bearing quicker than a long crank. This is from the hammer that is beating on the bearing every stroke.

This is why I say a bearing is a bearing. Look out for the "Snake Oil Salesman". And buy a good bearing from a good source or bearing house. There are plenty on the net that specialize on small and large bearings. Take care of your bearings by cleaning the motors after the days running and using a good oil for after run storage. Our fuel does a lot of damage to our bearings.

We clean and oil our motors at the end of every event. And when you see one of Doc's or my 101's running and the rpms they are turning remember they are $15.00 bearings.