JAE or JAE style boat tuning thread

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anthony_marquart

anthony_marquart

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2003
Messages
3,743
I would like to start a thread on setup and tuning of the JAE style boats.

Things like

-engine and any details

-pipe and pipe length

-props and any mod

-fuel

-turn fin

-rudder

-etc

and any other set up info you can add

My boat is

-JAE influenced design

-NR 5 port

-AB parobalic pipe at about 8in now, head clearance too high

-ZIPP prop they sell for the boat

-50% GRIM fuel

I really don't have any performance data, still breaking in the engine and setting up.

What do you guys have and where should we go? Pics would be great too!!
 
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Anthony, i'll bite, coffee, and a keyboard.... We can hope, and it'll happen that Ron, and David, will arrive, as they are the pinnacle to date i've seen.... and per the 80 mph post earlier, they both have to be near the mark, or easily close in heat racing trim.

I built a few, which, all have varying results, for the satisfaction of helping some of my friends, and the concept of new blood to the 21 hydro design ideas...... a christmas gift from a great friend, and mentor........

My boat: Kit build, bulkheads pinned, tub reinforced, inclusive bait box self induced. heavier, sure.. 4 lbs whatever.... and hanging tough......

Motor: Kevin Bulifant Oval Serpent Novarossi....

Pipe: Cooper/Woods @ 7 7/8ths to the weld.....

Props and ongoing testing: Mark Sholund custom, profiled H6, 3.21, 44.93.... best yet... 50X69 @ 3.46, 45.6... consideration....

Byron fuels:... range from 55/11, to 45/16.... performance gains nominal but there.....

H ware, currently inverted speedmaster long nose 21 strut, ON the ski, speedmaster mini hydro rudder.....

Fin: currently Mike Hughes design, and ongoing testing......

Recommending per results, as I chase mine a little, of which, most times, I enjoy the tweaking/resulting data to changes more than running the thing:

The booms, are fragile enough to warrant reinforcement.... currently, 3/16ths hardware store dowel lightly epoxied and pinned inside.... solid, and yet to tell to come....... 'lectric guys are using them?.....

I've run the circle on the fins available.... currently, and this weeks new result, with the Ron Zaker applied fin brace aka: tyndall like.... had the boat instantly holding awesome in the turn, and more raillike and less hunting to dart than ever before... ie: driveability, big time, and what I'm used to..... david's fin will be reinstalled per the brace, shortly, as it's a nice piece, and designed well, for testing data ongoing.....

The rudder: must be well below the ski, and installed low on the transom.... 1 3/4 below, and 2 is better per results.... the walk issue the faster i get is something i'm working to solve, as, admitting error, mine is too high......

Kit, and Mamaril strut, seem the ticket.... mine was walking on the transom, and personally i like the 4 bolt speedmaster, and the brackets holding power.... nomimal, and beside the point, but... the Mamaril was easily filed a flat to allow lower overall strut depth, on the ski, and shimmed on the transom..... maybe, and search........ basically and a must with the strut, any strut, IMO, following the angle of the ski to infinity, per straightedge......

Fuel system struggles in heat race testing easily solved with in line hopper, as, just listening to this hull design actually RIP the turns, has enough G force to burp the best tank on mine surely.... Barney upcoming possibly........ little control line Perfect tank option.

H7, to reduced 10's, if, you have the grunt..... soon......

John Knight, and his build has made farther gains, along with Adam, here, as we all share finds weekly..... basically having serious upper end equipment, and powerplant... (John), to middle with mine, and serious bone stock kit with Adam, ( kit everything, and yet to not show great signs in gaining easily)..... Box 5 port/CooperWoods same, H5 profiled, Sholund...... this week blew his mind...... gimme that boat...... set it, and forget it, you dog....... we bumped 60's this weekend......

Everybodies different.... the boat is there, easily..... I enjoy the search... even the instructions state burn lots of nitro, and i am. Mid to low 60's and workin on it..... good luck..... mike
 
A few other notes to add from Mike's comments:

1. Sharpen the turn fin on BOTH sides on the vertical leading edge. At the start of the curve sharpen the outer edge to the end of the fin as normal. This will help the boat track straight.

2. If you use the Speedmaster mini rudder, use the full length, do NOT cut any off. Sharpen well on both sides of the rudder. This will also help the boat to track straight.

3. If you are using a NovaRossi engine, look at the pipe length to be 7.5" or even less. RPM's are critical and a long pipe will not give them. I know of several racers that are inside of 7.25" and some even inside of 7". I cannot address the needs of a CMB, MAC or AA. The Woods/Irwin or OPS 3280, stinger reduced to ~ .283 is best for the NR. If you use a parabolic, use the 21S (short version) and not the long one. The AB 21RX or 21SS should also work well.

4. Props to look at at the H-7 (3.4"), 1450 (45MM), and a 1445 pitched up a ton. I will be trying the ABC 1600, 1700 and 1800 series next. I hit a wall with a special H-6, was limiting the rpm, and could not get over 65 mph. The others noted do.

5. High nitro, 65%-70%, IMHO, is not absolutely needed, IF the above is addressed correctly and the boat is set up properly. 50% can do the job quite well.
 
i am shocked with all the drawings that rod sent out or kits that have been bought there isn't more chatter about this?

chris
 
Chris Wood said:
i am shocked with all the drawings that rod sent out or kits that have been bought there isn't more chatter about this?

chris
Click to expand...

Really not alot to say that hasn't already been covered.

With no strut or sponson adjustment needed it all comes down to props , motor and pipe.Stick a quality turn fin on it and your racin.

I am runnin a Nova mod , s- pipe with a David P turnfin (awesome fin)and the performance is solid.

Modifed 1450 at the moment for a prop with lots more testing in that area to come, 5069 is were I would like to be.

Boat is very smooth on the water and very easy to drive .

I have only a couple heats of racing on the boat due to another issue that I am working on but the boat was easily as good as any other boat at the race.

Tim K
 
One other note.

Because everyone is so concerned about top speed and not overall performance with twenty boats for some reason the best I have run consistantly so far was low seventies with a modded 50/69.

Tim K
 
Testing continues on mine..... low 70's rocks!... i did the 50x69 on mine, and it was a little much, least the prop i had......

More to go...... and, i just dont wanna do the berylium dance for awhile.......

finding to fact, that the hull design allows serious wheels to be launched with ease, it's upon plane and cornering i'm searching pipe balance to hold 'em in...... continued.....

Discussion abounds, but, IMO, the team has given us a serious basic test platform ( set AOA, and strut angle).... aaaand, it's almost my fault i deviated from the constant, ( personal additions), that may be posing what few issues I'll solve.......

Fact found, that, the exact pair kit builds i did for my buddy, continue to easily gain, and the issues arent there...... 'doh!

With the variables, excluded, sponsons, and strut, whipping it into shape on my part gets easier as i go....... the stocker/kit boat i'm helping on, is catching up to me easily.....

IDK, beat the horse, and thanks to Rod, Ron, and David, as the thing goes, hydro racing gains, and we all getta have fun..... Mike
 
I have a jae style .21 boat. Its not the fastest but it will run any prop I have put on it upto a 1650 stock, I race with an H5 seams to be very reliable like this. My boat has raced with a older NR2000 SS for all this season except the last heat of mendota (broke a race). I did get luck and Mike Larson had a extra engine in his tool box.... asked me if I would like to run it..... thru his NR .21rx in my boat ran great and was able to take a first .... I wasn't able to run my cowl without changing something on the cooling and didn't want to mess with someone Else's engine so ran cowl less and figured run out of traffic. I got the chance to get the start and took it an kept outta traffic. I have been testing a new NR.21RX and so far engine seams to be running anything I throw at it. the engines I run use a ops3280 pipe at 8-8 1/8" I will try going a little shorter now.... since I am running such a small prop figure I can go a bit shorter. I use a Zoom carb on 60% nitro. ohhh I do run a David Preusse muffler on my pipe. I do have what seams to be alot of left in my rudder.... I did build this boat around the hardware I had so I still am using a stock .21 David preusse hawk turnfin.... I did have to change my rudder blade from the rough standard size i used on my FF to a longer version..... its still speedmaster mini its just not cut down .... this boats ride height is alot higher than my FF boat. since my turn fin is not sharpened on both sides maybe that is one reason i need so much left in my rudder. I would also say with time you will get better with this style boat..... it was a big change in driving going to this style for me.... the boat turns very well and next thing I knew I was inside the course always correcting.

good luck

Paul
 
gooycheese said:
I have a jae style .21 boat. Its not the fastest but it will run any prop I have put on it upto a 1650 stock, I race with an H5 seams to be very reliable like this. My boat has raced with a older NR2000 SS for all this season except the last heat of mendota (broke a race). I did get luck and Mike Larson had a extra engine in his tool box.... asked me if I would like to run it..... thru his NR .21rx in my boat ran great and was able to take a first .... I wasn't able to run my cowl without changing something on the cooling and didn't want to mess with someone Else's engine so ran cowl less and figured run out of traffic. I got the chance to get the start and took it an kept outta traffic. I have been testing a new NR.21RX and so far engine seams to be running anything I throw at it. the engines I run use a ops3280 pipe at 8-8 1/8" I will try going a little shorter now.... since I am running such a small prop figure I can go a bit shorter. I use a Zoom carb on 60% nitro. ohhh I do run a David Preusse muffler on my pipe. I do have what seams to be alot of left in my rudder.... I did build this boat around the hardware I had so I still am using a stock .21 David preusse hawk turnfin.... I did have to change my rudder blade from the rough standard size i used on my FF to a longer version..... its still speedmaster mini its just not cut down .... this boats ride height is alot higher than my FF boat. since my turn fin is not sharpened on both sides maybe that is one reason i need so much left in my rudder. I would also say with time you will get better with this style boat..... it was a big change in driving going to this style for me.... the boat turns very well and next thing I knew I was inside the course always correcting.

good luck

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul,

Several things about the right pulling:

1. Get the rudder very sharp and evenly filed from both sides.

2. Taper (file) the bottom of the rudder blade from side to side to eliminate a ride surface on the bottom of the rudder.

3. Sharpen the turn fin on both sides as I noted in my previous post.

4. Put a 1/8" toe in for the right front sponson ONLY. Have the left side identical on both booms. The right rear should be the same measurement as both left sides.

These items should help you with the pulling. It did mine.
 
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john, in my SHORT experience with riggers, tapering the bottom of the rudder will create a ride surface & cause lift. for sure, not as much as a flat bottom at the wrong angle to the ride attitude of the boat. i prefer a flat bottom, as square to the RIDE attitude (not the bottom) of the boat as i can get it. even a slight angle up to the the rear on the flat bottom surface of the rudder. i have seen the same results on ob's, where i have MUCH more experience, that is where the idea to test this came from. actually, the lift more noticeable on rigger's than ob's, imho.
 
moparbarn said:
john, in my SHORT experience with riggers, tapering the bottom of the rudder will create a ride surface & cause lift. for sure, not as much as a flat bottom at the wrong angle to the ride attitude of the boat. i prefer a flat bottom, as square to the RIDE attitude (not the bottom) of the boat as i can get it. even a slight angle up to the the rear on the flat bottom surface of the rudder. i have seen the same results on ob's, where i have MUCH more experience, that is where the idea to test this came from. actually, the lift more noticeable on rigger's than ob's, imho.
Click to expand...
I'm kind of getting lost here on the rudder? taper? is that like the miss vegas rudder shape? If you take out the flat bottom,would you take the lift out of it by tapering it?..Ya mine stills pulls alittle bit. Ok any of you guy having proublems with your turn fins bending and flexing on you? Its happening with my.12
 
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there are a few options on the turn fin.

you can get one of David Preuses or one from Dick Tyndal.

and if you have a NON BENT one, you can do one of 2 things to stiffin it up.

1. If you have some .015" or so carbon fiber sheeting, you can cut a piece of it

and glue it in place aprox. 1/2" ABOVE the water line on the turn fin. You can use JB Weld

and ruff up the surface of the turn fin where you want to glue it in place,

mix up the amount of glue you want to use, then spread a thin film on either piece and

clamp them together or use a very heavy weight (brick, steel bar, ect.) and sandwich the

pieces and BAKE them in your oven at 400 deg. F. (yes you are reading right) for about

2 hrs. This baking will thin the glue then cause it to set like you wouldn't believe.

2. Do the same thing as stated above, except use another piece of aluminium plating.

I personally opted to use one of Dick Tyndals turn fins. works great. (my wife saw what i was about to

do and said no f - - - - ing way!!!!)

Carl
 
Robin & Nessa,

I hear what you are saying but the JAE is a different animal. Some things from a regular styled rigger applies and some does not. I first ran the rudder with a flat bottom and it was lifting the rear of the boat. That is not good for a boat using only a center ski and no traditional sponsons. I then filed each side of the bottom to a blunt point and that removed the riding lifting surface. That settled the boat down and let the rear ski do it's job. Getting the leading edge iof the rudder VERY sharp is important, with any boat truly.

As for the turn fin, the kit fin will bend. I did it on the very first run. Had some 7075 alum fins made and bent them immediately. They were bending just below the sponson towards the outside of the right sponson and not towards the hull. I got a Preusse fin and have yet to bend it. The Mike Hughes fin will not bend either. A fin fix that some of the JAE design team is using is taking the kit fin and cut off the top half. You want the bottom of the plate to be just above the water line which is slightly above the curved area of the fin. This acts as doubler. You put it BETWEEN the sponson and the full turn fin. Tie them together with some 4/40 bolts and nylock nuts. It will strengthen it up considerably.

But for me, the Preusse fin is holding up and is not bending. I have not put on a doubler, yet.
 
John Knight said:
Robin & Nessa,

I hear what you are saying but the JAE is a different animal. Some things from a regular styled rigger applies and some does not. I first ran the rudder with a flat bottom and it was lifting the rear of the boat. That is not good for a boat using only a center ski and no traditional sponsons. I then filed each side of the bottom to a blunt point and that removed the riding lifting surface. That settled the boat down and let the rear ski do it's job. Getting the leading edge iof the rudder VERY sharp is important, with any boat truly.

As for the turn fin, the kit fin will bend. I did it on the very first run. Had some 7075 alum fins made and bent them immediately. They were bending just below the sponson towards the outside of the right sponson and not towards the hull. I got a Preusse fin and have yet to bend it. The Mike Hughes fin will not bend either. A fin fix that some of the JAE design team is using is taking the kit fin and cut off the top half. You want the bottom of the plate to be just above the water line which is slightly above the curved area of the fin. This acts as doubler. You put it BETWEEN the sponson and the full turn fin. Tie them together with some 4/40 bolts and nylock nuts. It will strengthen it up considerably.

But for me, the Preusse fin is holding up and is not bending. I have not put on a doubler, yet.
Click to expand...
Mine is the zippkit turn fin and hardwear. Joe talked to Ron at zip about it. Ron said I cant believe your bending them. Ron said that Martin Truex is running that same turnfin without any proublems. Joe said yes ,there bending. Joe had to drop out of a race because that turnfin and was pulling to the right. He's fliped that rigger 6times with that turnfin. Phil Thomas gave joe a turnfin he had. Was better pulled less and rigger didnt flip. Ron did send us two turnfins. Joe put that on and the first run it fliped and it was bending too Joe & I'd asked around,should a turnfin flex at all? So far the answer was no. On the rudder the part that facing the front of the boat, should that area be rounded or not? I did it like the miss vegas rudder
 
nessa, the front/leading edge of the rudder should be SHARP, not dull/rounded. just be sure you sharpeh it evenly on boths sides, or it can cause pull.

john, if you angle the bottom of a flat rudder up slightly to the rear, it will eliminate lift. angling/sharpening the bottom (even bluntly) still creates a ride/lift surface. it will be less than a flat bottom, but is still a lift surface on the inclined plane you create. i don't care what boat it's on, water will still work with the face of the taper to create lift. i have MANY hours & trashed bits of aluminum testing this. i understand that the jae is a different animal, but simple laws of hydrodynamics & physics can't be altered by a name..........
 
moparbarn said:
nessa, the front/leading edge of the rudder should be SHARP, not dull/rounded. just be sure you sharpeh it evenly on boths sides, or it can cause pull.

john, if you angle the bottom of a flat rudder up slightly to the rear, it will eliminate lift. angling/sharpening the bottom (even bluntly) still creates a ride/lift surface. it will be less than a flat bottom, but is still a lift surface on the inclined plane you create. i don't care what boat it's on, water will still work with the face of the taper to create lift. i have MANY hours & trashed bits of aluminum testing this. i understand that the jae is a different animal, but simple laws of hydrodynamics & physics can't be altered by a name..........
Click to expand...
hears a pic of my vegas rudder. that what I did on my JAE.12. I do have another rudder that havent been touched just in case. Let me know if I did it wright,if not please post pics of the wright way to do that.
 
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Nessa,

From your pic, you have it reversed from the way you need it. The bottom of the rudder either needs to be dead straight to the bottom of the hull or slightly longer (1/16") in the front (transom) or leading edge. I have tried them every which way this side of heaven over many years and have found no distinct difference between flat or a longer leading edge. Tapering it to the rear does have a big effect - lifting.

When sharpening the rudder leading edge, make sure you have it sharpened equally from both sides, or you have created pull to one side.
 
I bent my turn fin first run as well other than the material being soft the fins are bent horizontal to the grain , would be a lot stronger if the grain was running vertical to the bend.

I really like my JAE so far , other than a couple minnor new boat problems I think it will win a lot of races.

Tim K
 
Tim k said:
I bent my turn fin first run as well other than the material being soft the fins are bent horizontal to the grain , would be a lot stronger if the grain was running vertical to the bend.

I really like my JAE so far , other than a couple minnor new boat problems I think it will win a lot of races.

Tim K
Click to expand...
There isn't any grain in the aluminum fin..........what you see in the fin is it is being brushed to remove the scratches in the surface inplanted by the forming roller.......

A lot of JAE builders have been adding a doubler to the fin 1/2" above the waterline to the top of the fin to stiffen the fin and inhibit the bending.....
 
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