AMB race tracking system- is it worth revisiting?

Terry Keeley said:

Andy Brown said:

Yep, many nitro boaters became Gas boaters. It's not the guys that cause the arguments on the drivers stand at the races. It's is the boats themselves and the CD's inability to score the heats properly....and that's only because they are human!

8 boats hit the start side by side. 7 boats finish and KNOWONE knows who started or finished in what position.

It's time for R/C boat racers to get serious and look into an electronic lap counting system.

Many times I have seen it work very well at the NAVIGA World Championships.

It will keep everyone Happy & Smiling!

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Remember testing the AMB system at Joe's place in the 90's?

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Yes I do Terry. It was showing good potential.

I raced with the AMB system at the NAVIGA World's on 4 different occasions. Each time was with very good results.

Today, with the availability of personal transponders the systems could be more user friendly.

Andy wasn't the cost a number of years ago about $75.00 per transponder? The car guys buy their own and move it from car to car. Isn't the AMB system an Italian system ie: ATSA MY BOAT?

Thanks, John

Boat racing would be a lot better if it follow car racing more.

The original point of the thread isn't surprising. DEFINATELY at national events and even at district events...... The comradery is awesome!! Everyone has the understanding that a lot of time and money is spent on just getting the equipped. We all want to race. And most all are modelers who like to accomplish! Even if it's helping others accomplish!! It's a great hobby although often lost in the bickering on line. At the race we are all "geeks" sharing a passion. And some are amazingly talented.

As far as gas vs nitro. Enough already! Either side has its pros and cons. One comment does not make a "profile" from either side! Gas racing is more competitive and stronger in areas then nitro ever has been. And there are a lot of awesome modelers on both sides. This country has become so accustomed to being divided I guess we can't help ourselves.

John Beardslee said:

Andy wasn't the cost a number of years ago about $75.00 per transponder? The car guys buy their own and move it from car to car. Isn't the AMB system an Italian system ie: ATSA MY BOAT?

Thanks, John

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The IMPBA gave up on the AMB system because of too many lost, damaged transponders and trying to keep the transponders charged all day for our high usage rate.

Personal transponders would totally eliminate those problems because they can be kept in the Rx box and powered off the rx/pack.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=personal+transponder+rc+car&tbm=shop&spd=9318303268206212258

Ok guys here you go, a specific thread to talk about the AMB system. I may move the AMB posts from the other thread here as well.

I think if given a chance this might work, and also help limit the wonderful time spent arguing who placed where and who didn't jump the start.lol

Maybe NAMBA and IMPBA can do a bulk buy of this product to offer its members/clubs a better price than of retail.

Would definately add integrity to heat racing.

Ive been using the AMB system at our club for many years and it is brilliant most of the time, we have had a few incidents where the system missed a lap but they are few and far between. No more arguments over jumped starts or who finished first etc. All round great investment

I've raced several times using the AMB or similar system. These events have been in the USA and 6 different countries. I do not recommend it.

In Europe it is used because the most popular classes are 30 minute V-Boat racing. The AMB should do a better job of counting laps than a person.

The problem is that to get accuracy, the wire has to be near the boats. If the water gets rough, the boats tear down the wires. Even if the water is not rough, when two boats tangle up in the front straight, the wires can be ripped down. This happened several times this past season in Dessau. Each time the wires were ripped down, it took time to restore the wires and reset the computer.

I've seen the wires hit by V-boats, deep vees, and riggers. Even a 20 rigger moving fast will do a lot of damage to the AMB system if it jumps off a roller and hits the wire. Gas boats sit so high in the water that they should probably have to slow down before crossing under the wires.

At every other race I've attended, there were similar problems. Remember, AMB or similar systems are used frequently in Europe. It is not like they don't know what they are doing.

At times when I've been at an AMB system event, the racers that did not have their own transponder, rented a transponder at the site. On two different occasions at two different races, using two different systems, I was told to not use a certain transponder as it was "slow". If you want to get a good time, find which transponder the host club recommends.

I have seen an AMB system call a boat for a jump start when the boat was clearly behind the line. I've seen an AMB system call a boat as the winner when it clearly was not the winner.

At two different races I was told that if I wanted to get a good reading, I should be sure to cross under the wire in lanes 3, 4, or 5. Remember, these were races that used the AMB systems frequently.

The AMB or similar systems can be a big help, but they are far from perfect. You will still need judges to verify each and every race. You will still have arguments when the AMB system makes one call and the judge over rules it. Plus, unless you are very lucky, you will lose a few hours of race time fixing the things that go wrong.

What does that tell you about AMB or similar systems?

If you have a large number of boats entered, you can't afford to lose the time. If you don't have a large number of entries, you can't afford to pay for the system.

These systems do not correct problems, they create different problems.

Al Hobbs

Being the person who brought the AMB system to the IMPBA in the 90's I can verify all that Al has said. I know the system has improved since then but the basic problem is erecting the wires and having them pick up the boats consistently and accurately.

Works great on paper but in the field not so much.

That said I'd be interested to hear how Steven uses it with the Plymouth club.

I have used it many years racing RC cars. It is really good at counting laps for cars as the pick up loop is under the cars. For boats, the pick up loop has to be above the water, as the loop has difficulty under water. Also the length of the loop is limited.

It can pick up some transponders up to two or three feet away, which makes it useless for detecting jumping the start. If there is a lap penalty given during a heat, the software has to be set up to accommodate that in the positions.

We have been looking at this for a few years now. I feel AMB is not interested in solving any of these problems.

We also looked at using an RFD system. It's a lot cheaper, ($3000 to $5000 for AMB, no software or transponders) but it has not been developed enough for our application.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to use something that gave us what we want. But I don't think AMB is the answer.

I worked on a RFID race system for dirtbikes, it works pretty well but has some issues. The bottom line is the riders had to be funneled down to a signal line to cross the "finish line" to get the accuracy needed. For boat racing I do not see it working. The AMB system is not 100% also, more like 75% solution. Human errors on scoring are the lowest I expect.

Many years ago the Minute Breakers started using a video cam on the start line. They generally had the accurate result of the start before the first lap was completed. It was an instant replay of sorts. Not sure why they stopped ,maybe someone can chime in here.

can you run the wire underwater .. i would say that may help the LONGEVITY of the wire.. if possible?

I was involved in the operation and maintenance of the IMPBA AMB system and thought it was a great device to help the CD keep track of jumped starts and laps. However, it took extra club personnel to assign transponders for each heat and keep up with them. People would walk off with their boats after a heat with the transponder still attached for example and the club would have to hold up the next heat until the transponder was returned. So it slowed things down a lot. The batteries in the transponders had to be charged over night to make sure there were no weak signals too. So.....It helped the CD but it also slowed down the race. It did help to resolve home field jump the start calls! I liked what they did in Charleston with the camera on the starts. That seemed to work really well.

John

The camera starts we used in the past in Charleston is coming back. We still have the equipment. Looking to possibly upgrade the equipment as well. No more arguing about the starts. We have had enough.

John Finch said:

I was involved in the operation and maintenance of the IMPBA AMB system and thought it was a great device to help the CD keep track of jumped starts and laps. However, it took extra club personnel to assign transponders for each heat and keep up with them. People would walk off with their boats after a heat with the transponder still attached for example and the club would have to hold up the next heat until the transponder was returned. So it slowed things down a lot. The batteries in the transponders had to be charged over night to make sure there were no weak signals too. So.....It helped the CD but it also slowed down the race. It did help to resolve home field jump the start calls! I liked what they did in Charleston with the camera on the starts. That seemed to work really well. John

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John

Now they have personal transponders that run off of your receiver battery. You can put them right in your radio box. They are about the size of a small receiver. Most RC car racers have multiple pt's for their different class cars.

Chris

They have run the detection loop underwater for jet ski racing. The only difference is that the jet ski's do not have props and rudders under them. They would run the detection loop in pvc tubing just below the surface, and the jet ski's would run right over it.

I was told that the deeper you run the detection loop underwater, the weaker the signal is.

Another problem is the length of the loop. The longest they make is 20m (65 ft.). If you started it in lane one, it may not detect someone running close to shore, or inside of lane one.

I think it would be a great tool to use at a race, but someone has to take the initiative to work out the problems with the system.

In Hannover/Germany we are using AMB (with new software) 55-60cm over water and 25m antennaline - working perfect

Danny King said:

Would definately add integrity to heat racing.

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I think calls would still be vehemently ( violently ) contested in some classes requiring the deserved DQ . I'm open to anything as it is very difficult to keep track of what's going on unless under ideal conditions , lighting , glare same colored boats etc .

John Knight said:

The camera starts we used in the past in Charleston is coming back. We still have the equipment. Looking to possibly upgrade the equipment as well. No more arguing about the starts. We have had enough.

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Bonus !