IMPBA FE Scale Unlimited Rules

I didn't want to hijack Ed's thread on 1/8th scale FE motors so I decided to start my own.

So here is the IMPBA motor rules on FE Scale Unimited Hydros. "Only one brushed motor of any type or one brushless motor from the following types, Lehner 22xx series, Neu 15xx series and Plett 370. Any other brushless motor is subject to technical approval".

My my question is, is it time to adjust to the motor list? If so what would be the technical standards? These rules have been in place since I've been in the hobby going on six years now. Motor companies have come and gone.The Neu 1530 came out two years ago. It is similar in power to the Neu 2215, but it is a Neu 15xx series. So it's automatically an approved motor. I'd like to see more affordable options for folks to make the class more appealing. Now I don't want this to turn into another P-Limited type thread. I know we're talking spec motors and it is kind of the same thing. But I consider running scale boats as gentleman racing. It is just as much about show as it is go plus these boats are bigger and heavier so I don think the power margins have to be as tight. So what do you all think?

First off the 1530 is not close to the power of a 2215 (don't know where you got that from) other than being barely 1/4" longer it's the same can size as a 1527. A 2200 series motor will produce more power and a good bit more torque than a 1500 series will. I've run the 1530 in a scale it's very taxing on the packs, the 1527 1.5Y is still the rock solid choice. And as far as the cost thing- other than twins 1/8 scale racing is the most expensive class to run because of the cost to build one correctly duplicating the real boats as per the rules regardless of if it's FE or nitro. Offering a cheaper option for motors is not going to improve the numbers, anyone willing to spend the time, effort and money to build a nice 1/8 scale is not going to fret over $50 or even $100 cost difference on a motor, you are kidding yourself if you believe that. Another thing is will the "cheap" motors even hold up well in the demands of scale applications? How much will one save when they smoke the cheap motor and need another one and that's if it doesn't take the ESC with it. Just like nitro scales being limited to .67 motors (the choices there are just as thin) you do need tight power margins, it makes it more reliant on the set up and quality of driving. I have run scale for many years and it takes time and effort to produce a top running boat, it is not a class to try to run if your budget is that tight where $100 cost difference on a motor will make or break you.

I have a nice 780 kv motor sitting on the shelf that I can't run in a scale. Would like to but not on the list. Unfortunately I don't know enough about these engines yet to be able to make a call on what should or should not be allowed so I bought a couple of 15xx neu motors. I just want Spring to get here so we can race! If I get any more bored I may convert my Circus Circus to electric too, just for something to do.

John

There needs to be an amendment to the rule. I agree with chilli there are other motors out there and others are running them with success at a more affordable price. If allowing Asian ,etc. motors to run gets boats in the water ..we all win. This shouldn't be about the guy with the most money wins

Don, I got my information on power output from the Neu Chart. The 1530 is no longer there but doesn't take a rocket scientist to interpolate it. Every step up in size on the 15xx series Neu from the 1509 to the 1527 goes up 250 watts continuous and 500 watts peak. The 1527 is only 250 watts continuous and 500 peak less than the 2215. I think it's a safe assumption that the 1530 and 2215 are close in wattage output. I can't comment on torque but wattage is a unit of power.

I was never concerned whether or not the 1530 is a better scale motor. I just wanted to point out of irony of the current rule allowing a more powerful motor to slip into pool while other alternatives must meet technical approval. The guys that originally wrote the scale FE rules did a great job but maybe it's time for a little tweaking. So I wanted to see how the membership feels about the possibility of adding additional choices. You can't compare the nitro rules because other than engine size there is no restrictions: "Engine must correspond with IMPBA Class E" That's it. Any motor that falls within the class is legal without technical approval. The current FE list allows the Plett 370 which I've never seen in person and have only heard mentioned on the electric boards maybe once.........and it also allows any motor in the Neu 15xx series, including the 750 watt Neu 1509 which is ludicrous. Talk about a motor that's destined to fail in a scale boat. And while we are concerned about cheap motors holding up, I don't think it's the IMPBA's job to protect us from ourselves. I've seen junk in all aspects of the hobby including Nitro and Gas and the majority of us FE guys have burned up equipment for one reason or another. Now if we continue to specify what motors are allowed but do allow additional choices, I feel we do have a responsibility to test any candidates (after technical review) under a one year trial to verify their viability.

Last thing I'm going to talk about is cost. $150 may not be a deal breaker to many of us but it is to some. I know we've lost a few of the top dog ESC manufactures over the last couple of years, but there are options out there that can do the job at a lower price. And over the last couple of years, the price of quality Lipo's has gone down as well. I remember paying $250 for a single Polyquest 4S 35C 5000 and now I can get better packs at half the price. This trend along with a little flexibly in motor choice might put scale boats within reach of those that wouldn't have considered it a few years ago. Especially those that have nitro hulls and are looking at big bucks for nitro fuel. My intent in all this is just to get more guys running the class. We've got two in the district that already run FE's, know what the costs involved are and the current motor list is a deal breaker. We have the potential to have a full heat of FE Scales running this year. Wouldn't that be sweet. No other class in the IMPBA requires top shelf equipment to be able to run in a class.

Again the rules already state "Any other brushless motor is subject to technical approval" As far as I know we don't have any technical standards yet. Maybe it's time we come up with some???

Chilli,

Wattage isn't all there is to it, TORQUE is the physical force that gets the work done. A 2215 will turn a much larger prop at the same wattage as a 1530, it's a physically bigger motor that will produce far more torque. I've touched on the power options for FE scale with a couple other well known FE guys not too long ago and it is a complicated subject. Personally IF a change is considered in my opinion the can diameter and length should be the thing we look at the hardest as if the physical size is restricted you will only be able to make so much power. I would think 40mm diameter and say 107-108mm length (the 1530 is about 107mm in can length and already legal) could be an option to consider. As for the "We've got two in the district that already run FE's, know what the costs involved are and the current motor list is a deal breaker" statement again I will say if the extra $50-$100 to by a 1500 NEU over a "cheap" motor keeps them out of the class they perhaps need to rethink the desire to do so. If they can't afford a $275 motor then what about the stout ESC we all know will be needed (as expensive as the motors). The demands placed on the equipment in a FE scale virtually DICTATES using high quality gear, I for one don't want to see anyone's scale boat sitting in the middle of the pond burning down because of low quality equipment failing under the strains of the heavier scale boats. Let me make a suggestion to you and please don't take it the wrong way- finish your new FE scale and run the class before you start trying to change it..............

Larry Roberts said:

There needs to be an amendment to the rule. I agree with chilli there are other motors out there and others are running them with success at a more affordable price. If allowing Asian ,etc. motors to run gets boats in the water ..we all win. This shouldn't be about the guy with the most money wins

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Larry,

Even if a proposal was submitted now and passed by the board for 1 year trial at next meeting it would be for 2016 and not impact this season. There is nothing wrong with looking at possibilities (as I said I've looked at this previously) and having some healthy discussions about how to approach the options but it needs to be carefully planned and not a knee jerk decision. Let's talk about it more as we progress through this year and maybe we can put something together that's well thought out. And sadly I will say even though I don't agree with it, FE seems to be where cubic dollars often reigns supreme.

Can't say I didnt see that coming Don. LOL Anyway. Not looking to turn the class upside down. Just wanted to put some feelers out there to see if others felt the rules could use some tweaking. I don't see how my view will change after whipping your butt,,, uh, I mean running the class for a season. I'm already running the legal motor you sold me as well as the ESC you recommended.

I like your recommendations on what we can possibly do if a decision is made that changes are needed. IMO-The current crop of motors should to be the benchmark as far as maximum performance allowed in the class. I'm thinking maybe a 6000 mah limit on the class could help keep the playing field level. These are methods where compliance can be easily verified at the pond.

I hope we get some more feedback other than the guys from D12. I also welcome any input from the NAMBA guys with experience running alternative motors comparable to the Neu1527 in performance.

Aside from what type of hull a motor is placed in I can confirm a 1530 and 2215 with similar kV's have very similar outputs. The 2215 has a larger diameter rotor, but the 1530 has an active rotor length double that of the 2215. The 2215 is more efficient than most of the 15 series motors due to its geometry, but has its limits pushing high currents. I have seen several 1530 powered scales, but every one has suffered from ESC failures pushing high currents. I have not seen a 2215 powered scale, but suspect it would be decent. If you wanted to slaughter the competition given the current set of rules you would be running a LMT 2280 and 400 controller with 2P worth of batteries. That's 7-8hp on tap and throttle everywhere.

NAMBA is wide open for power systems. You can run a full T system if brave and smart enough to set it up.

If there was any motor I would add a solid choice it would be the Castle 2028 which is bulletproof on 8S.

TG

Last time I checked the class is never offered at any race. I have an 1/8th mostly built sitting on my shelf but never finished it because its a dead class. (To Bad I loved it). You might as well open it up and let them run what they brung. My .02

photohoward1 said:

Last time I checked the class is never offered at any race. I have an 1/8th mostly built sitting on my shelf but never finished it because its a dead class. (To Bad I loved it). You might as well open it up and let them run what they brung. My .02

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Howard

I would like to see the class offered as well, but there are just not enough guys that show up with them when it is offered. I remember you guys running in London a few years ago, and it was looking like it would take off. The Transom Twisters added the class for the Tech Center race, and nobody showed up. You almost need a group of guys that race in the gas/nitro classes that show up regularly to the races to make it work.

I have a U-3 in the basement waiting.

Interesting discussion that dates back to the introduction of lithium batteries.

I'm not convinced "any motor" would be the way to go but perhaps there are some other options.

We have to be careful here as what we have (IMPBA) does seem to be working and keeps the "cubic dollar" factor (other than the obvious)out.

Just my .02 FWIW

D.

Tom Kelly said:

photohoward1 said:

Last time I checked the class is never offered at any race. I have an 1/8th mostly built sitting on my shelf but never finished it because its a dead class. (To Bad I loved it). You might as well open it up and let them run what they brung. My .02

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Howard

I would like to see the class offered as well, but there are just not enough guys that show up with them when it is offered. I remember you guys running in London a few years ago, and it was looking like it would take off. The Transom Twisters added the class for the Tech Center race, and nobody showed up. You almost need a group of guys that race in the gas/nitro classes that show up regularly to the races to make it work.

I have a U-3 in the basement waiting.

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Tom,

We plan on running electric 1/8th scale in District 12 this year. First race is at Fort Richie, Md. April 25th and 26th. Come on down!

John

For that matter, consider coming down to any of our district races .

District 12 Races

April 24-26, District Race #1, Cascade MD

Hosted by the Model Boaters of Baltimore

May 15-17, District Race #2, Queenstown, MD

Hosted by the Delmarva Model Boat Club



June 13-15, District Race #3, Centreville, VA

Hosted by the Capitol RC Model Boat Club

August 28-30, District Race #4, Smithfield, VA

Hosted by the Old Dominion Model Boat Association

September 18-20, District Race #5, Cascade, MD

Hosted by the Model Boaters of Baltimore

"I have not seen a 2215 powered scale, but suspect it would be decent."

My T plus has a 2217 in it. Ran it at the NATS. The boat weighs a country ton and has very few laps working on the setup.

The NAMBA FE scale rules were figured out in a hotel room in Jersey in 2006. haha They were based on the setups guys were bringing to the Michigan Cup races in prior years. We debated a motor limitation even then.

The IMPBA rules were debated and settled on by a group of racers on line shortly there after. I argued then against specifying motors. It was totally and completely intended to limit the cost of a scale. Those in favor of the motor limits didn't want the boats to become a wallet race. Which is ridiculous in my opinion. A scale boat is a massive commitment. Both financially and build wise. You can't half a$$ it. The difference in cost between a 22 series Neu and 1527 series Neu or even a 3060 Lehner isn't going to be the be the linchpin that determines if you're going to build one.

We've had a motor spec for IMPBA and no spec for NAMBA. Neither organization has cornered the market where FE scales are concerned. So I suppose neither really is better. I think it comes down to skill and commitment to do an FE scale. Not everyone can do it.

Tom, when TT offered FE scale at the tech center there were only 2 FE scales in MI. There are still only a handful of us in MI with honest to goodness FE scales. Mine isn't IMPBA legal due to the motor spec. It's a commitment of resources thing. Guys can build one scale and race it twice a year or they can build 3 limited boats that they can race 8 times per season without traveling out of their neighborhood. It's a tough sell.